Epilogue

In our prologue, we met Jennifer Saminathen on the eve of yoga teacher training. What became of her?

In this episode, we find out Jennifer’s next steps — and also hear from two previous guests about their decision to leave wellness entrepreneurship behind.

Transcript

Sarah Vance 0:00

We still don't get paid what I believe we're worth

Tiana Dodson 0:03

I had secretly been wanting to try health coaching

Carrie Ingoglia 0:06

women have been dropping out.

Andi Zeisler 0:08

Your body is the next frontier of liberation.

Stefani Ruper 0:12

You have to monetize.

Sarah Banet-Weiser 0:13

We buy into this idea that anyone can do this,

Victoria Ferriz 0:16

your body becomes proof

Kelly Diels 0:17

whether or not we're trying to sell a service or a product. All women are brands

Brenda Swann 0:21

now I'm a health coach.

Kaila Tova 0:25

My name is Kaila Tova. And this is your body your brand. epilogue.

Jennifer Saminathen 0:31

We are now entering the fourth week of yoga training. And my initial thoughts are that it is very intense. I am recording this audio journal a week after probably one of the worst Days of Yoga training where I was contemplating whether or not I want to just leave, I saw it all around in my classmates is that there was just fear and shame. And this look on our faces, trying to understand why we couldn't get it.

Kaila Tova 1:17

Although season one concluded a few weeks ago, I couldn't leave you all without revisiting some of the women who dropped out, you just heard a snippet of an Audio Diary recorded by Jennifer semi Nathan, the woman whom we met in the prologue. If you recall, Jennifer had left a tech job to travel and become a writer. And along the way, she found herself drawn to yoga teacher training, I caught up with her a few days after she recorded her final Audio Diary and asked her her final thoughts on yoga teacher training.

Jennifer Saminathen 1:44

So we officially finished and graduated three days ago. So I think the last time we talked, it was the day that I was starting training, which like you said it was a few months ago. And now that I'm done. I'm feeling a lot of things. So first, I'm feeling relieved, I didn't realize it was going to be as much work as it was. we are required to take 200 hours of training, which essentially means we have to also, we're also required to take classes as well. So there's days not doubling up on classes just to ensure that I would mean those requirements and graduating on time. And in addition to in class, and we have to write in journal about each class, to give us a better understanding of how we want our class to run like things we didn't like things that we did like that was that was actually a very eye opening experience. In addition to that we had to, we had to take outside class classes that we can compare our program versus, like how someone teaches at another yoga studio. And having that contracts is very helpful. And it's gosh, oh no, we we taught for the first time to a community last week, which was the most nerve racking experience. And we were all just, yeah, we're all just little girls, literally just so nervous. We never taught to anyone besides ourselves. And our little group and part of the graduation requirements that Okay, we're going to open up this class, and you guys are all going to take turns teaching. And keep in mind, we don't get our, our section we don't know our section till the night before. So the only prep work we have is ours, before class, and then a few hours before we sleep essentially. But I will tell you that after all this, I am so glad I met the people that I met I know we're going to be friends for life. And for that I'm very grateful. But I think the question is, Do I still want to teach after all this after going through all this? And the answer is no.

Kaila Tova 4:53

Even though many of the coaches whom you met throughout the podcast have continued with wellness, entrepreneurship in some capacity, personal training and yoga, teaching, health coaching and body image work, there have been some who have dropped back into the workforce. I interviewed two of those wellness entrepreneurs about a year and a half after our first interviews to try to understand why they decided it was time to give up on their passion projects and go back to their previous jobs. You met Sarah Vance. Early in the podcast, Sarah was an ICU nurse who was also trying to build a wellness business on the side so that she could live on her own terms. Although she started out as a personal trainer and a bodybuilder. She eventually transitioned to body image coaching, so she could help women stop dieting and get on with their lives. And then one day, her business was just gone. Her professional accounts were suddenly personal accounts, her website was missing. And I wanted to know what changed for her since it seemed like she'd been going through a period of growth with her business, her podcast and her writing.

Sarah Vance 5:54

All right, so as far as me, you know, the decision that I made to quit my business and totally, you know, let that part of my life ago, it was really a reflection of living within my values and my belief system. I mean, the message that I have had this entire time that I was, within my business and coaching individuals was how do we become more aligned with who we are? And ultimately, how do we just live our damn life. So I've said that 1,000,010 times, it's been a prominent theme in my writing, and my speaking and my coaching is live your damn life. And when I really took a step back, and was looking at my own life, I had a big freakin like, moment of realizing that I was not practicing what I wholeheartedly believed in, I was living my life, but at the same time, like my business was overtaking my life, I was putting a lot of energy, emotionally, mentally, physically, into my business. And when I looked at, you know, the end of the year came and I was looking at, you know, how I do and everything, and I had, I had progressed, you know, the year before I did better financially, you know, yada, yada. But the amount of money that I made financially compared to the amount of labor I was putting in, was ridiculous. It just was not adding up. And it just wasn't worth it to me, because it was adding another stressor to my life. And it was no longer fulfilling me. I mean, I love coaching clients, like if I could, and I said this, like, if I could just magically have clients appear, coach them and not have to worry about marketing, or writing or podcasting or, you know, developing programs or whatever, I would do it, of course, I would do it, you know, if people if people would be willing to pay you, because that's the other thing in those specific work that I did. And I think this is kind of with women in general, and more, so if they are a marginalized woman, you know, you know, a person of color LGQTB, you know, something like that a fat woman, I think that those, you know, intersections obviously play a role. So I want to recognize my privilege with that, but being a woman, we still don't get paid, what we, I believe we're worth and I think that is very prominent, and even the work that I see that I was doing, and the work that I see within that, that realm of body image work, if you will, body acceptance, whatever, whatever kind of genre you want to call it. People are constantly asking for unpaid labor. And it's just absurd that, you know, we have to put that out almost, it's an expectation for women to, at least in my experience, and what I've seen in my life, it's an expectation almost, that you have to give out so much in order for somebody to even give a little bit for you, and actually pay you. And when I started this year, you know, I initially was like, I'm going to try, I'm going to continue, I was writing a book, I was developing a program, like I was like, going to move forward with my business. And one of my themes was, I'm going to get fucking paid. And at the end of the day, like that was it like I was like, I'm not doing any more free labor, like I stopped being you know, active in my facebook group that I had, I switched everything to Patreon, my blog posts become paid, like, I was, like, I'm going to get paid because we have bills like all of us have bills to pay. And I think I spoke about this, the first time that we, you know, chatted about my business is like, I don't have somebody that is helping me pay for my bills, like I'm a single female, in a, in a city, that's pretty expensive to live in. So I got, it's all on me, you know what I mean? Like I needed to be able to financially support myself. And so when I really looked at that those two factors of like, am I actually living my life? Am I actually able to do the things that really fulfill me like, yeah, coaching fulfilled me, but it's also super fulfilling for me to just go and have fun, like I do live in a beautiful city, I would much rather go out and like go to some breweries with some friends and just chill or sleep and do nothing or, like, spend some time in the mountains with my dog, like, there's a lot of stuff, travel that I would much rather do than spending, you know, time locked up in my house in my, you know, office on a beautiful day, like, it's just wasn't working for my life anymore. I didn't allow for a spot annuity anymore, which is something that I value as well. Because if you have clients, you know, here and there throughout the day, or whatever, it's like you can't go and like go out in the mountains, you know, an hour away and be hiking, and then come back, you know, it just doesn't, it wasn't reflecting what I need right now in my life, and what's going to provide me with most fulfillment, and it was going against the message that I truly believed it. And on top of that, like, I needed to make some money. And I also just wanted to be able to clock out, like straight up, I just wanted to be able to clock in, do my shit and clock out, which is why, you know, I decided to continue with my nursing career, which I never quit in the first place.

Kaila Tova 10:52

Unlike Jennifer, Sarah never quit her job. Even though her public persona made it look like health coaching was her only gig, it just wasn't a good risk to go all in at the time. And she was lucky she stayed. Sarah, like me got started with body image coaching around the time when it was still a relatively small niche, but over time, and it was a short period of time, it just grew and got crowded. And suddenly, everyone was a body image coach. And yet, despite the fact that there seemed to be a new coach every day, no one seems to actually be paying for the coaching.

Sarah Vance 11:25

Well, I think it's interesting that in if we're specifically talking about body image, which really is, you know, a discussion about self worth and the value of an individual, which it just really blows my mind that if that really is the base of that work, like seeing individuals value, especially when it comes to anybody who resides in our marginalized body. So women, people that identify as women, you know, I could just it doesn't, it becomes a very big clash with like, what's actually occurring, versus what the actual quote unquote movement or belief system is about. Because if we really want to advocate and say, yeah, you know, I'm valuable, and the rest of these individuals are valuable, then but people are living that like, they're, they're not living that like the either not only the coaches, but also the people that are ingesting all of this stuff that are asking for it and, and not wanting to pay, it just doesn't. It's a very like, it causes a lot of friction when you sit down and critically think about that message. And what's actually occurring is that like, if that's what we want to say, if we want to know our own value, and we truly want to create a shift with it's like, everybody has value, blah, blah, blah, then like, we need to be we need we need to live up to that, like, we need to walk that talk, we can't just talk it and then be like, I'm not going to pay anybody you know what I mean?

Kaila Tova 12:48

Right? Right. And, you know, and it stinks because, you know, we're it when you're in a helping profession, even if that profession is currently being unpaid. You know, when you're somebody who wants to help, you should want to help without any strings attached. Right? Like there's a, there's a moral, ethical thing that happens. And so, I mean, I can speak from my own experience, at least, you know, like, when somebody would send me like a four page email about their eating disorder and ask for help. I'm not gonna say, I can't give you any advice. Here's my program, or at least I didn't, but that's why I didn't make any money. Um, you know, I just answered and I would spend hours a day answering emails from people, because I didn't want to see people hurt. But on the flip side, what happens is then people like you and I then burnout. And you know, like, I literally lost like four years of my life to, you know, just sitting in a coffee shop on a Saturday while working a full time job Monday to Friday, you know, trying to frantically write blog posts, answer emails, schedule, social media, when I could have, you know, been out living, and living the principles that I wanted to help the people who were looking for help from me.

We touched on this a lot during the podcast, the ways in which equating our bodies with value becomes a trap, especially when we're asking for monetary compensation for making our bodies into consumable brands, Jennifer noticed how much energy it took to be on just for the duration of the class. And it turned her off from wanting to pursue that on this as a career.

Jennifer Saminathen 14:29

This program gave me such a deep dive into what it would be like being a yoga instructor. And I have so much more respect for people in the fitness field, and people who do this for a living, because there is a certain level of energy that you need to bring a you need to bring it all the time. And I mean, even days, when you're feeling tired, even when you're not feeling your best, like that doesn't matter, you need to be on top of your game, especially if you are commanding the classroom, or that will trickle down to your students. And that was very evident when I took classes and I was like, okay, obviously, the teachers not in the best mood, or is not bringing their A game. And that shows right you see PPC instructors who genuinely love what they do, and will do it for free. Like for that I like the genuine love what they do. And you see instructors who are just kind of going with emotion, and not really putting the personality into it. And it becomes almost robotic. And just really thinking about my process and my journey through this. And I looked at my friends that I made, and I have friends that are very, that wants to be teacher after that. So like, yes, we're going to continue with extension, we're going to continue to audition. We're going to continue with this process and and do it needs to be done. For me, it was more of this journey was okay do I want to change is going to be more of a self discovery process. And at the end Kaila. And I know

Kaila Tova 16:20

for many of us, this self discovery process often starts in the yoga classroom, or at the gym, or in the spin stadium or you know, insert your workout modality here. For many women, the focus on exercise or nutrition just feels like an out. And as we've discussed, once you've made the first investment, and it's usually a large one, it's a lot harder to disentangle yourself from making further investments or trying to stick a bad investment out. Jennifer luckily managed to distinguish for herself, however, that this was not a long term investment, at least not in the way she initially imagined.

Jennifer Saminathen 16:55

At the end, we was at our second to last day of class. Okay, yeah, show of hands, who wants to continue with extensions. And just so you and everyone else knows, the journey doesn't end here. Right? The journey only end here for people who don't want to continue. So extensions, is an extended program, in which they deep dive into how to teach at their specific studio. So right now, we're all certified, we can go and teach anywhere. But extensions means if you want to take this particular studio, and the studio that are associated with this company, we're nationwide, you have to go through extension, they're going to teach you the details of the music, the true light, you really give you concrete feedback on how you can improve as an instructor.

Kaila Tova 17:52

Only four people from her class of 16 will be continuing through extensions. But all 16 we're now licensed to teach. It's not that Jennifer was done with yoga. Quite the contrary, she found something in being a student that fed her. But teaching was not the path that she felt she would follow.

Jennifer Saminathen 18:09

I believe that. How do I get it? I know I could do it. And being there memorizing the sequence, learning the cues. I know I can't do it. But what I felt after teaching was just pure exhaustion. And it wasn't, it wasn't that I did terribly or anything. I think we all did very well. It's just some people were very energized after and they felt invigorated. But for me, I'll think I, I don't want to continue teaching this because it just wasn't fun. For me, quite frankly, what's fun for me is going into class and being told what to do it. That's plain and simple. Like I love yoga, because I love going in there and being stupid yoga. And there's other areas in my life where I'm like, okay, I can take a lead on this. And I feel comfortable taking the lead on this, and I feel empowered. But through the yoga teaching process, that wasn't something that I felt empowered doing. What I will say though, it's opened my eyes to the industry as a whole. So what I was like to do own a yoga studio, and I've communicated this with my, my group, my community and the coaches. I see the opportunity and the business here, which is like there's so many people trying to be yoga instructors at our Wow, I didn't realize everyone here, including all the other studios are holding teacher training, which is incredible. We all have similar interests. But yeah, it just wasn't fun for me. And I think that there is a level of you know, white knuckling it and getting through the difficulties of pursuing your interest, but there is a level of you got to be interested in into. And it Yeah, and that just wasn't for me, I and I know, my boyfriend thought I was really hoping this opened up a gate. Or I would come out on the other end and just think, Hmm, this is what I meant to do with my life. But it was more Wow, I love to open up a yoga studio and hire incredible talent. Because like I mentioned, they put a while you'll introduce put on a lot of work and people who've been in industry. In general, if you genuinely love what you do, just they care about their students. The amount of time they spend in rehearsing, and we're hosting and just the little details that go into creating cloth or so essential. So I came out of it thinking I would love to own but I would not like I wouldn't like to teach.

Kaila Tova 21:12

I found this very interesting Jennifer's realization that the yoga market was so saturated. You know, while doing research for this podcast, I saw a figure from a report that the yoga Alliance put out in 2016, which stated that there are two people who want to become yoga teachers for every one person who is already teaching. If we look at Jennifer's revelation from a capitalist perspective, it seems to make business sense to want to start a yoga studio and create opportunity for those teachers who wouldn't otherwise have a studio which to teach. But on the other hand, especially given all the work we've done over the past 12 episodes, we have to ask, does the world really need more yoga teachers or body image coaches or personal trainers? Does this market saturation really do anything for the people who were purporting to help Sarah Vance, ask yourself the same question. And another thing that I talked about in our previous discussion is about like this Bobo bubble, I think I mentioned that where it's like, people come and they stay. And it's like, my goal as a coach was to get you through all of this shit. And like, even away from body, quote, unquote, body positivity. And I know that may cause a little friction with individuals that are listening to this that are in the movement, but to not be so trapped, like instead of like being trapped in diet culture, to then be trapped into body positivity, not in the sense of not being involved with the liberation of all bodies, but like being so incredibly focused on that where it does prohibit you from living your life. And one thing that, you know, I find problematic is that we're not we're not advocating for individuals to use their own resourcefulness. We're not like if we, if somebody comes to us in our email, and we're just going to be continuing a, they're asking us for free labor, but be we're also dis servicing of those individuals, by giving them free advice or free, whatever, because we're not allowing them to be tap into their own resourcefulness, which ultimately, that's what they need to be able to move forward out of all of this stuff to be able to live their life as they need to be able to say, Hey, I'm resourceful I could, you know, look this up on the internet, there are, there's so much stuff now with body image and body positivity and self worth. And there's, there's literally it's so saturated, that you can just google stuff. So it's like, we have to be able to hold people accountable for their own healing as well. Because, you know, it goes I oftentimes, and and this is it saying for an individual that has a diagnosed eating disorder, because that individual is very different from the individuals that I'm talking about. And I worked with, but but you know, putting that back on an individual to say, Hey, you know what, you're resourceful. You need to, you know, do this for yourself. Because I think that ultimately, that discussion is what's going to help those individuals the most, even though Sarah's work was about getting people out of coaching, she needed to decide if she would continue as a health coach in a market where anyone could hang up little shingle and begin dispensing their personal stories, his advice,

Sarah Vance 24:03

you have to understand that like helping an individual is different than coaching an individual. And I think that there because it's not a regulated field coaching, anybody can call themselves a coach. But there's a difference between a coach that has spent money time and energy on to truly understanding the concepts of how do you actually coach somebody versus an individual who's actually just giving advice, there is a significant difference, and how you're going to be able to help people because I think that you know, it speaks world a difference if an individual has gotten professionally trained to know how to coach an individual versus somebody who's just saying, well, this is my personal experience, this is what worked with me, because that's, that's not helpful to people it is for a little bit, but like everybody's different. And that's actually what's not going to help a person through the longevity of this process. So there's a lot of stuff that's involved with that entire thing. But I think that it's a disservice to both individuals to just give out free labor because we're not putting we're not holding those individuals accountable for their own healing. Yeah,

Kaila Tova 25:07

yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right. And I think, in a way we've become kind of, because we've become so used to googling everything, like we need advice, I need help. I can't tie my shoe laces without looking up the right way to look up a, you know, the right way to tie a shoe lace, if you will, you know, I mean? Like I find myself relying on Google for things that I should just be able to figure out myself. And so we've kind of come to a place where we're training people to need coaching, which is really, more than anything, it's a capitalist thing than it is an actual helping thing. You know?

Sarah Vance 25:42

Yeah, absolutely. And it totally, you know, disintegrates even further, ourability to have self trust, which, you know, coming from the realm of diet, culture, and body image, these sectors of individuals have had their self trusts completely obliterated, that's one of the biggest things that they have to work through is learning how to trust their own decisions, trust their own, whatever it may be intuition, if that's what you want to call it, but trust themselves. And so when we, you know, kind of cater to these individuals in that way, we're not allowing that person to develop that vital necessary component of self trust, which is like, one of the core components of self worth is, is self trust. Um, so if you don't have that, and you're not teaching, or even facilitating somebody to rely and rebuild that for themselves, and that's not going to be helpful in the long term, either.

Kaila Tova 26:40

For Sarah, the desire to help to teach to guide was there, but she had to ask if this was worth the hustle.

Sarah Vance 26:48

My goal with coaching, you know, yes, it was to help individuals go through this, you know, process because I know how detrimental it was to my life when I was in diet culture, but also how healing and how life is changing, it was for me to get out of diet culture. And so I had a real burning passion for that. And once I got even further into it, I still do like that passion will always be existed. Like even though I have left coaching, I'm not as present online, like all that shit, like, this is a real belief system. And I see how detrimental and how needed it is for individuals to speak out against a lot of social justice stuff, not even about fat phobia, diet, culture, but races, all this stuff. That's, that's a part of my individual beliefs and values. So that doesn't change. But the reason another reason, you know, yes, I wanted to help people. And yes, I wanted to make money, of course, but I have always been the type of person where it's like, what is going to allow me to work the least amount of time, make the most amount of money, so I can go and live the most out of my life. I mean, in all reality, like, that's, like, I want to be able to work to live and not live to work, like hands down. So I had this illusion in my head that, you know, you grind for three years in your business, and it's really rough, and you dedicate yourself and then like, eventually, you know, the clouds part, and there's, you know, singing and rainbows and like, you're just going to be able to passively make money, right? Like, we hear that all the time passively make money, and it's just going to like, everything is going to be easy. It may be for some people, but like, that was not the case. For me. Like I said, earlier, I was working my ass off and super tired and not making nearly as much as what I could by literally picking up another day at the hospital. Um, so. So that was, you know, what my, my goal for coaching was to be able to make money live my life, on my own terms, not work for quote, unquote, you know, the man and, you know, have more freedom, which was a complete facade. That's not the reality that I had, I feel like I was still working for the man because I'm, we're all functioning under capitalism, right? Like, we're still,we're still working for the man, I just was working way harder when I had my business because now I can work 312 clock in and clock out, I get paid, you know, I think we all could get paid more, but I get paid, you know, decent amount of money, and I can turn my brain off, and I have benefits, I have, you know, stability, and I don't have to worry as much and I and I'm, I'm good at what I do. I enjoy what I do. It may not be like this, you know, diehard burning soul passion, but it is, you know, it's a it's something that I enjoy, and it definitely is a passion of mine. That, you know, gets me excited again, now that I've gone into a different role into the nursing career, I accepted a leadership position in, it's basically a nursing supervisor position for my unit. So you know, everybody's kind of familiar with having a charge nurse. So not only am I the designated charge, but I also have individual people underneath me direct report people underneath me and I, I also have other responsibilities as far as taking care of the unit, and being you know, kind of the middle person between higher leadership and the bedside. So that position is, I'm really excited about it, because it's something that is just speaks to, it was just a fit, it really was, it just was a natural progression to where I already was in my life, to be able to easily transition into this other position that I think that I'm going to do great at, and obviously, my, you know, peers and everybody thought so as well, most of them at least thought so as well, which is why I actually have the position. So you know what the good thing with nursing is that you can do just about anything, you could travel and make a shit ton of money. You could be at the bedside the rest of your life, you could get into higher leadership as far as like, you know, higher up with being a CFO or whatever, you could go back school and be an educator like there's literally so much that you could do that it's it's just a really great field in all honesty, but for me personally, I didn't expect that I would ever get into a quote unquote, leadership position. It just wasn't anything that I really thought I wanted to do. I knew I was always kind of interested in teaching individuals in that sense. But now that this position has come into place, I definitely could see myself you know, moving through with this position even further or even going in to higher leadership eventually, but I'm not sure if that's something I want to do yet or not.

Kaila Tova 31:53

The second woman whom I interviewed about a year and a half after our first conversation is Carrie and Goliaths, the creative director, who we met at very points throughout the podcast, and she also felt exhaustion with the corporate world, she left her corporate job to build yoga for the revolution, and tigers and tweets, various businesses that were centered in the body. And while working in the corporate world, made her want to go home and lie down forever. The hustle of building yoga for the revolution was its own kind of energy vampire. And while Carrie hasn't returned to the corporate world writ large, instead of focusing on yoga, Carrie has re engaged with her advertising roots through freelance.

Carrie Ingoglia 32:32

Yeah, it's interesting to think back a year and a half ago, because I feel like that first initial push out of the corporate world was still so raw to me at that time. And now that I look back, it feels, I feel like I'm obviously the same person, but it feels like a lifetime ago that I would have enjoyed doing the things I did every day. And and obviously towards the end, I did not enjoy it, which is part of the reason why I left, I am still freelance and making my way through that. gauntlet is different, it's a different kind of hustle than it is in a nine to five or 10 to six or 10 to eight or whatever your hours might be. Um, it's a little bit more. I don't know, I want to say it's a roller coaster, but it's one that I have the option to drive if I remember to take the wheel. And so there's there's different kinds of effort involved. And I'm not a naturally hustle person I'm not I kind of believe that hustle is glorified in a way but on the other hand, it's also really necessary if you'd like to work for a living. So you know, you can't really like coast your way through freelance life, you have to be in touch with people all the time. And as someone who needs recovery time is naturally introverted. I can give out a certain amount of energy and then I need recuperation time. And I'm, I've spent the last year figuring out Well, how do you how do I do that? being who I am knowing that I was exhausted going into work every single day and dealing with those politics and had no recovery time. Now how do I balance my self time my recuperation time knowing that every minute I'm not working, I'm not getting paid, which puts a little bit of a different spin on it

Kaila Tova 34:36

for Carrie freelance was a better fit, even though it came with prosperity, because it meant escaping the structural issues that plagued her time in the corporate world,

Carrie Ingoglia 34:44

some positive things that have come out of it are, I have met great people, specifically a few, a few women that I've really connected with in terms of how we view the agency model as kind of a unhealthy beast. And that when we work together, whether we work together on projects outside of an agency, or whether we freelance together as a team at an agency, we are so so focused on transparent communication, compassionate conversations, support, it's a completely different way of working, it may be possible to work that way in a full time corporate environment, although I have not personally experienced that. I imagine that it would have to be a very, I don't know, yen focus kind of kind of place, I I always get a little hung up, I don't want to go too far into saying it has to be female. But there is that energy of accountable compassion that I've really been in exploring lately, especially politically and, and with what's going on in the world. And, and I think that the only way to move any relationship forward, whether it's personal or professional has to be with compassionate accountability. That's the only way to get anything done. So being able to work with, you know, if it's one person or group of five people who all come to the table with certain a priori understandings, right, they might be I don't have a separate agenda. I'm not trying to compete with you. We all agree that this is our goal. And those seems super duper simple. And I think they're things that I thought were happening in the corporate world, and then was constantly disappointed when they were not happening. And not just from other people from myself as well, I would go into a project thinking that I wanted the best for everyone, and then be in the middle of it and realize, no, this is all ego, this is personal. This is you know, and get really wrapped up in that part of it. So to be able to have people around you that support, more compassion, excuse me a compassion driven mission. To get the work done, the work doesn't have to all be about saving puppies, or doing the good right thing, even if it's about something you you don't necessarily care about, it can be about shave gel. But if you're working with a group of people who are coming together with that alignment in terms of the goals, then you know, then it can be a great working experience.

Kaila Tova 37:44

Well, Carrie has moved towards a more collective model of work, Sarah has had to grapple with some of the growing pains that come along with taking on a leadership position.

Sarah Vance 37:52

Yeah, so I still the position that I'm in now, which is why I like it so much is because I still enjoy being a bedside nurse, like I still enjoy interacting with the patients, and interacting with my team, if I'm in charge and facilitating that, and working with the doctors, like I still really enjoy that I would absolutely hate to sit in meetings, like eight hours a day, like No thanks, I think my brain would probably fall asleep and I would not be engaged whatsoever. So it as far as like, what it's like being a woman in leadership, leadership positions, and nursing. You know, I think the last, I've worked in three hospitals and all three of those hospitals, you know, there's a lot of women and leadership, which I think is really great. And I think that's just because of the field in general, you know, nursing is predominantly, still to this day, predominantly, you know, female driven, I think like in my unit I have, you know, there's like 40 employees, and I think maybe five of those are men. So you know, it's still predominantly female driven. And with that, that's going to be reflected into leadership, and even higher up leaders, which I think is really helpful, because I think women's brains, you know, tend to work a little bit different as far as the way that we lead, or our ability of how we lead, we haven't been constructed or socially taught to lead in a specific way like men have. So I think it's really a beautiful, great, great thing to kind of see that in this specific field. Now, with that said, does that mean that you know, I think any type that anytime that a female steps into a leadership position, I think that there's always going to be a backlash against that specific female. And that's something that I experienced as well, when I took this position. And I think that's also just because we've been socially taught that other females are always my competition, and I can't, you know, I can't see another woman rise up, or, you know, whatever, because it's a reflection of me not being good enough or something like that. Like, it's it's this weird mentality of like, constant competitiveness, whatever the hell I'm trying to say, being in competition with one another without like, realizing like, we're all lies. And we also, we all had the same opportunity, which is, you know, something that I think is really important, like, there there, of course, was a backlash, I definitely had, you know, some resistance. And it was, I think that would have occurred, no matter who it was, it just is how females are sometimes.

Kaila Tova 40:18

Yeah, unfortunate. Yeah, no, we've definitely been taught well, because, you know, resources are more scarce for us. Just in general, like if, you know, if like, what is it 4% of the Fortune 500 are run by women, then clearly, leadership is more scarce. And so when we see other women getting the opportunity to lead, that means that it's not like, Oh, well, I could also lead, it's like, oh, well, she just took my spot.

Sarah Vance 40:47

Yeah, but even individuals that had no desire to get into the spot was still going to be, you're still going to get that backlash. Anytime I think a female shows up in the world, like you bet your ass, you just going to expect that you're going to have some type of criticism, like somebody is going to be hating on you, no matter what you do. And as long as you can accept that this is what happens when we start to I'm going to use Tara Moore's phrase, when we start to play bigger in our life, that's what's going to happen is that we are going to, we're going to be open to criticism, that's what comes with playing bigger in our own lives, whether it would be stepping into a leadership position, or stepping into who we are, or speaking up period, like anytime that you're starting to show up in this world, as a female, you're going to have criticism, and you're just going to have to learn how to accept that and realize that it's not a reflection of you, but it's a reflection of the other individual. And that's just how it is, you know, and that that's what's helped facilitate me being able to be like, whatever. That isn't to say that it wasn't hurtful, because it was straight up bullying and cattiness. But, you know, it's what you deal with.

Kaila Tova 41:56

Yeah, I guess. So it just, it really sucks at that's what we have to accept? You know,

Sarah Vance 42:04

it is, and I don't think that it's necessary to accept it. I mean, I've taken, you know, I think that's where we have to continue, especially of being a person that stepped into a leadership position to then you know, address that appropriately as a leader. Rather than just say, this is our constant, this is our norm, because this is what we're also used to, I think a leader is somebody that challenges the status quo, and wants us all to do better, individually. And collectively.

Kaila Tova 42:31

Even Jennifer, who wasn't in a leadership position, experienced some of the bullying, and cattiness will at her yoga teacher training.

Jennifer Saminathen 42:38

I will say that, just as I mentioned, with corporate America, and how there's going to be people that you don't like, and that's just the reality of it, I realized that with this program, again, you know, there's people that I went head to head was, just because I didn't agree with their coaching methodologies. Let's just say that, and it, it rubbed me the wrong way. And I'm, I'm not a person who is going to sit back and sit back and not say anything, especially if I feel what they're saying is, is a little bit hypocritical of what we're being taught, essentially. So that's what I learned is, even in the realm of yoga, you know, where everything is supposed to be, like, we're all one or a community. One shall not gossip about someone else, or one shall, you know, always come with the best intentions and everything in my ration. And no, letting go to your highest power, all that are the foundational the foundations of you, which we've learned. But then there's things around like, hold on. We were just taught all this and training and how important is for instructed to live by these limbs of yoga that we're learning. But I'm looking over there, and I see you completely and I hear you gossiping about someone that quite frankly, quite frankly, I don't think it's cool. So that was where I was like, You know what? I didn't agree. And, again, I had to do mental gymnastics because I was thinking, Man, I really wanted this to be a all around good soul searching journey. Thank you. And there's aspects of the journey that I was like, No, that was not cool. So I guess even in the yoga process, I had to get real to where not everyone is in it, for the goodness of it. And some people are really just there for the job.

Kaila Tova 45:21

The thing that these conversations has taught me, however, is that if we can rise above the desire to cut one another down and compete with one another for resources that we believe are scarce, then collect, devising will be possible. Without that awareness and desire to break through some of our socialized competitiveness, however, it becomes a lot harder. Here's why I do believe it's possible though, when Carrie went back into freelance, she didn't just go it alone, she made an announcement on social media that she was joining a new kind of agency, and I was really interested to hear how they were making it work.

Carrie Ingoglia 45:54

It just joined a group called school marketing, sp OL, and the woman who founded it is someone I went to college with, I didn't know her in college, but we have been in touch through various friends. And she's she hassles, like the way that I look at on the internet. I'm like, where do you find like she has beyond say, energy. I don't know how I'm Look, I'm sure that behind the scenes, like her kitchen is a mess, or whatever it is, but it looks amazing. And she gets things done. She just gets things done. So she had put out a call about potentially starting a group that kind of breaks the agency model apart and and posits she's focused in PR. So she's she's positing Why can't we take all of our skills individually, we're all working independently, freelancing consulting, we may have small clients, we may have big clients. And if we want to offer them more, well, let's all get together. And oh, you can offer this skill? Well, I'm going to bring you into the fold on this project. And it's, and it's a way to network and to grow our individual work by coming together, and we don't have to do it in the same office building, we don't have to do it with a giant agency overhead. So for each client that comes through, the team is then able to offer specifically exactly what they need and none of what they don't need. So something that came across in the ad agency world is that when you're pitching a client, and you're trying to give them a quote, of value for what you're going to bring to the table, there's a lot of stuff in there. And then when it came down to the creative work, I felt like my budget was so small, because we had paid out for all these other people to be involved. And that's the way the agency world works. And that is what it is, but was school, because we're kind of doing away with that. We're able to just give people a little bit more value, there's fewer middlemen. And in fact, currently, there are no men at all. We happen to be about a dozen so far. Women who all kick ass and take names. And that's also a really exciting place to be. Because I think, because of where we all are in our careers, everyone is an expert in what they do. They're not. So far my experience with them has been no one is competing, no one is showing off. At the same time support is so easy to give. And I think it's because there's none of that competition, I often found in a corporate environment, the more support you gave, there was a there's a larger chance that you were seen as a support player, and not an expert in your own right. Oh, she's really good backfill, you know, or if I offered to edit something, because I come from a writing editing background, I'm doing that because I want to support the project, not because that's all I'm good for. And with this group, it really seems that we value each skill everyone brings to the table. And there's not that pigeonholing of, Oh, you are only good for this one thing. That is a support to me and my more important other things. So, so far, that's been really interesting. And I'm excited to see how it grows. And I'm curious to see where it goes from here and, and how we develop relationships with clients, and how different that can possibly be from a traditional agency model

Kaila Tova 50:00

was and I am especially excited for Carrie to find this collective and flexible place from which to grow her expertise and to support others, because she let me know, while we were recording that she was pregnant, she's now the mother of two beautiful twins and not having to sacrifice her maternity or time with her growing children in order to support a large company or her co workers must have taken some of the pressure off during this time in her life, even while the priority of not having a salary might still have made things difficult. While Carrie is now engaging in the unpaid work of raising children, Sarah is reflecting on the difficulty that many in her profession still face, despite the amount of hard work they do to help their patients.

Sarah Vance 50:40

I think that you know, within nursing as a whole, and I don't think that it's even differently. I mean, it may be with women and men, but there's pretty much a standard of how much you get paid based on experience. But, you know, we don't get paid enough period as nurses for how much we do especially bedside nurses, with all the stuff that we adore. And you know, I've worked in the ICU, the intensive care unit for this is my 10th year now. And you know, we this is, and people are going to probably not like this, but I get the pay the same amount as any other nurse and I don't think that's appropriate, because I literally am saving people's life, I'm literally keeping people alive on a regular basis, or helping them die with dignity, you know, if they decide to, you know, transition to comfort care, you know, a comfort care situation. So, you know, as far as is that, yeah, I don't think that nursing as a whole, I don't think that we get paid as much as what we should, I think we all deserve a little bit more, because we have, you know, there's a lot of risk involved with our profession, not only exposure to all sorts of bodily fluids, but you know, nurses have, especially in specific areas, we move our patients so we we are beating our body these up, it's long hours, it's labor is in a way that I don't think anybody can understand unless you're actually in, in the field, in the sense that it is a fatigue that is unlike any other fatigue that I've experienced, because your mind is on your emotions are on your social ability is on because you have family and doctors and other co workers you have to deal with, and it's physically intensive. So, you know, it's a lot nursing is a lot now with that, with that being said, you know, kind of speaking to the idea of of helping and feeling like you are not rewarded, I think that that is I can definitely see that as a challenge and some specific scenarios, but you know, I try to do my best to help all of my patients, and I feel like I do continue to care for them. Like when I care for my patients, I don't feel like I'm just doing this for, you know, capitalism, because I actually have the ability to to actually help somebody, whether they're in pain or whether they need emotional support, or whether that is helping them with their recovery. I mean, I really am being an active participant and helping an individual. So I don't feel like it's, you know, I'm working specifically in that sense, but it definitely is like we are ran hard sometimes as nurses I there's a there's a shortage of global, or I'm sorry, rather a shortage nation, nation wide, wide as far as nurses. So you know, it comes with the territory. But I think that that's where you have to just look within your own self and ask yourself those questions and be real with yourself. And it was still worth it. For me personally, I mean, I still get a lot of fulfillment out of the job that I do,

Kaila Tova 53:45

which is amazing. And I'm so happy to hear that because I, I worry, you know, like I worry about the allure of online health coaching, in a lot of ways, you know, and not just health coaching, but but online business in general, or just, you know, the the entrepreneurial mindset that we all have, you know, this push towards individualism is directly antithetical to creating a world where more people want to be nurses. You know, there's a reason there's a shortage. I don't know if it's directly tied to online business, but I think people are discouraged from going into professions where you work hard and don't get compensated as much as a CEO. You know, teaching I was a teacher, and it was miserable. I loved my kids to death, like, I adored them. And I, when I made the decision to stop teaching, it was like gut wrenching, but I was also working 90 hours a week and making 35 a year. You know, I had to, I had to live in, you know, my dad's extra room in my hometown, because I, like I literally my, I my salary didn't cover like rent in florida, where there's no like property taxes, right? Like, it was just one of those things where it was like, I, I didn't see a future for me, even though I loved what I did. And it's really interesting, actually, I was, I was at a women's event, some women's empowerment event the other day, and they hired me to teach a burlesque dance. And so I showed up a little bit early, and they were doing infomercials in between each of the session, the sessions. And, and one of the women got up to do her little infomercial. And so she stands up to sell some MLM beauty thing. And she talks about how, you know, she used to be an ICU nurse, and she was exhausted, and she didn't feel like she had enough to give to her family. And then she found multi level marketing, and she left and now she has more money than she made when she was a nurse, and she has a company car and she's able to spend time with her family. And it's just like, of course, why wouldn't you leave? If that's what's gonna happen? Right?

Sarah Vance 56:04

Right. I mean, but you know, with my situation, like, I'm not married, and I don't have kids. And yes, like my 312, they're very long. And I usually need a day of recovery. But I think that you have to have that awareness of like, you know, I, again, I come from a privileged position where I don't have kids, and when I come home, I it's not like, Oh, my God, I have to fix dinner, and I have to bathe my kids, which, you know, again, this all goes back to me always asking, like, Where the fuck your partner, like, he lives there, too. But you know, that's not my my mo to be able to say that to individuals. But, you know, it's again, a women are put as like, you know, do it all. Even when you're working, and you're exhausted. And you know, 13 hours later, even though there's somebody else in the house that could fix dinner, like it's on you, you know what I mean? It's on you to take care of all this, which is just a social issue on top of all that, but that because that's very real. I mean, that's some of the conversations that I have with some of my coworkers. I'm like, I don't know how I would be able to do it. If I had kids, I would be very tired and exhausted, for sure. So it's very enticing to hear that person's story of like, oh, everything is just great. I have all this money in a car and all this freedom, and I don't have to do anything and yada yada. Hell yeah, like, sign me up, I want to do that.

Kaila Tova 57:23

For Carrie, that enticement is gone, she's experienced the reality of what it looks like to go freelance and build your own business. And now she's willing to make some sacrifices.

Carrie Ingoglia 57:33

I think that that's one of the heat, the biggest things that's changed for me over the last year and a half is that when I first left the corporate world, I'm like, I'm never going to do nonsense work. Again, I reject bullshit, I won't do it. Now, I'm only going to do cause related projects, hey, I still would love I'm still moving in that direction. And the percentage of cause related work I'm doing is growing and growing and growing. But at the end of the day, I have a mortgage, I have a family. If a pharma job comes through, and I'm not working, I'm probably going to take it. That said, I completely agree with with your assessment that it's the way the work is done. And again, maybe this is just a rationalization. Right? Because I could be out. I don't, I don't know doing something more productive. But this is the world we live in. And I think it's a little idealistic, maybe overly idealistic to think that only our passion for a topic, only that can feed us. I think that sometimes there's some danger there, like a lot of this, like, follow your dream and do what you love is awesome, we should do that. I completely stand behind that. But sometimes you have to do things you don't love. And that's, that's just life that I hear like the voice of my parents and grandparents coming through me and that, like everyone gets to do pure joy all the time. That's just not what this world just isn't.

Kaila Tova 59:06

Yeah, I mean, like, if you are doing the thing that you love all the time, and it becomes your grind, you lose a little bit of the love for that thing, I would think.

Carrie Ingoglia 59:16

And sometimes it's nice to just at least for me, for my personality, it's nice to just know my task and do my job without putting 125% of my heart and soul into it. So that I can save that. So I can put that energy towards things that I truly care about, I can still care about the quality of my work, I can still care about the relationships I have with the people on that project, I can still care about all of those things. It doesn't mean I'm phoning it in, I can still have a really positive experience, even if I'm selling something that I wouldn't necessarily by myself.

Kaila Tova 59:57

And I think it also doesn't it take some of the pressure off of the the stuff that you're doing with yoga, and with your podcasts like then it's not like, Oh my God, if this doesn't work, I have to give this up. Now it's Yes, I can pay my bills, and I can still do the thing I love, right?

Carrie Ingoglia 1:00:13

I think at the beginning of yoga for the revolution, I really thought not that I would take over the world because I think that's a little egotistical. But I didn't know i the only people I knew who were podcasting had great numbers, you know, they were, they were impressive. They my husband, for example, has been doing podcasts. And he's been doing it honestly for like 15 years. So he was in on the ground floor. And we go places and people recognize him. That's weird, because he did the video show for a long time as well. And so that was kind of my, well, that's the ultimate, I'll be somewhere underneath that. But I didn't necessarily imagine like, Oh, yeah, no, it's, it's way underneath that. And that's okay for me, because of what you just said, because I can put my heart and my love into a topic and put my work into the world without attachment to having that be the one thing that needs to provide me money. One of the things that I've talked about with a partner of mine is evaluating value for each project. Because as a freelancer, you have to, you have to give quotes all the time, you have to have a sliding, we don't have to, but you will often have a sliding scale, depending on who your client is, I'm going to charge a corporate client, a higher price than I'm going to charge a nonprofit, I'm going to charge someone a lot more for something I don't really want to do, than I am for something that I'm super passionate about and would probably volunteer for anyway. So we talked a lot about what value Am I getting from this project? Is it financial? Is it educational? Is it relational? Am I you know, meeting people and, and having relationship benefits for it? Am I you know, again, am I learning a new skill? am I learning how to build this part of a website? am I learning something about a particular topic? Or am I just getting exposed to something I'm passionate about? All of those things have value. And I feel like when I was in the corporate environment, the only value was money. An award if you got an award, that was fine, also, but everything but also that is money, right. Because if you get more words, your agency will get paid more and blah, blah, blah, I think that the only value being money wasn't really challenging model for me. Because I didn't care enough about it, I just didn't care enough about the money. I'm going to get especially working full time I'm going to get paid whether we solidify the ideal Facebook strategy for this liquor client or not. I mean, maybe not forever, maybe if I'm really bad at it, I won't get paid at all anymore. And they'll tell me to go home. But on a day to day basis for your motivation to go into it every day. What I like about where I am now is that I can for every phone call I take for every project I take on for every morning, I may wake up early or night I go to sleep. I know because I've assessed it already for myself what the value is in what I'm doing. And that's all I need to remind myself if I'm in a phone call, and it's a total drag, and I disagree with the client. And I'm frustrating. I'm frustrated. I may also be frustrating. I just remember what, okay, what's my motivation for doing this. And if it's, you care about this subject, great, it's a good reminder. If it these people care about what they're doing, and you want to support them, great, that's a great reminder, if it's, you don't care at all, but they're paying you a bunch of money. That's also a good reminder,

Kaila Tova 1:04:09

Jennifer had a similar realization after coming out of yoga teacher training, while she's continuing to pursue her creative passions, she signed up for writing class at Stanford that she would be starting just after we spoke, she also realized that returning to a corporate career wouldn't just be an option for her where she was in her life, it was a good choice.

Jennifer Saminathen 1:04:28

So I am in the process of interviewing, right now, actually, and I'm going to leave that at that. Because I do realize that it's it's important for me to be real, and be responsible about my finances and what I need to do to take care of my financial obligations. And that doesn't mean that I can't pursue creative outlet outside of my daytime job. Now what I'm realizing realizing is that, in addition to having a full time job, which by the way, can still be new for me, right, it can still be an aspect where I'm growing and learning and continuing to Tech Challenge myself, that I'm looking forward to, but outside of my full time job, I still want to pursue creative outlets. Hence why I'm enrolled in the writing course. And I don't know, maybe I'll take up painting a couple months from now, once the writing is I don't, I am just open at this point. I'm like, you know what, I want to live a creative life. And I want to be an adult about it. Meaning, meaning, there's nothing wrong with being and I actually actually prefer to be tiled like, in my creative. This is my creative curiosity. But I don't want to be childish. So that's why I'm like, okay, Jennifer, let's get real. Let's start interviewing. Let's get out there and just, I don't know just have more of a foundation to work off of

Kaila Tova 1:06:27

being childlike, but not childish is what's helping Jennifer make it through on days, when she's reminded why she left in the first place.

Jennifer Saminathen 1:06:34

What I'm realizing is that what I gotta chase stuff is going to be everywhere. Meaning I need to learn mental gymnastics, is I want to be able to find some sort of happiness and still maintaining job. So what I realized is that no one even there's another process, I will tell you, there are times when I am being reminded of what has happened, meaning I'm being triggered, in the same way. And I will leave you the phone call, feeling just icky, and upset, and mad. And I'm thinking Hmm, these are the same feelings that I felt previously. And people that have interacted with previously that I didn't necessarily get along with, they're always going to exist, like people that you can't like everyone that you work with is what I'm coming to really, that's just the reality, you can like everyone you are, there's going to be people that you are going to disagree with. However, I'm also seeing that there are all the good people out there as well. And really just people who want are trying to provide for their families, right, like they're just really trying to do what is best for them to live a comfortable life and outside of work. They're, they're great. So yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to become more self aware about how I'm reacting to certain situations and not letting my emotions get the best of me. And really just being proud of myself for having this time off. Like, I'm not even just having a time off. I'm thinking, wow, once I start working, I'm not gonna have the same luxury of time that I have currently. So appreciate it. Right, like, eat it up, and just enjoy it and realize that once you start working, things are going to be different and different is okay,

Kaila Tova 1:09:10

different is okay, and Jennifer got the job. But if returning to corporate work isn't the right option for you right now. That's okay, too. But Sarah has advice for anyone who is still considering entering the crowded and precarious field of coaching.

Sarah Vance 1:09:24

If you're thinking about going into health coaching, you know, if that's what you think I first I asked you, what is the? What's the story attached to it, right? Like, just like there's a story attached to losing weight? What's the story attached to becoming a health coach, like be real with yourself? Like, what is the actual story because my story was a complete illusion. But regardless, if that's something that you want to try, go for it, I guess, you know, nothing is ever permanent in our lives. Just know that, like, it's really difficult. And you're going to have challenges. But you know, we all have to be willing to do what we think is going to be best for us. And that given moment, and I think that I tried to give people the benefit of the doubt and saying that we all try to do our best with the resources that we have. So if that's something that you really want to do, I'm not going to discourage you from doing it. Just be aware of like, why you want to do it and continue to be aware, and check in with yourself to ask if you're really living within your own values and your belief system for yourself. Because I think that it's very easy to get wrapped up into it and to kind of disappear into that whole entrepreneurial identity, mindset, work, work work, productivity, capitalism, like all this stuff. So if that's, you know, just just have a lot of self awareness and reflection for yourself, if you're trying to leave and you're totally exhausted. You know, I had the, you know, luxury of having another job that I fell back on. And, you know, it wasn't difficult for me to leave, because I and that's why I kept learning. That's why I kept one foot in the door there that's shut that door. Because, you know, I was like, this is a risk with starting a business. But so it was really easy for me to leave. But I think that it really comes back to asking yourself, at least for me, like what is it that I really how do I want to feel in my life and my existing in my life. And if you feel like, you know, like I said, You're living within your values and your beliefs and how you truly want to feel, then I think allow that answer to guide you with whichever way you want to choose. But also know, like I said, Nothing is ever permanent. And you can leave, and it's okay to give up that part of your life. It's totally okay for things to change. We're always changing and evolving. And I think that when we become stagnant, I think that's really detrimental to our own self.

Kaila Tova 1:11:53

And Carrie also realize that dropping out didn't necessarily have the impact that she thought it would.

Carrie Ingoglia 1:11:58

I mean, that's the thing, I think the biggest thing for me to realize, even before I left the corporate world was I thought dropping out, I felt dropping out was this radical act, and it and it and it is I'm not saying it isn't. But it's also there's a lot of us out here, making our way in a million gazillion different ways. It's not just work in a corporate world, or make soap for a living and sell it at markets, right? Like there's a huge, huge field of opportunity. In between those two things, there's an opportunity to do what you love without being an internet celebrity about it. I really thought when I first started, oh, I'm gonna have to be Instagram famous in order to make my life work. And that is just so not true. It's just so not true. And that's, that's a great gift for me, because I don't like that. I'm not good at it. And I'm not going to be an Instagram celebrity. So cool, glad I don't need to do that. Because I would kind of be screwed if I did. So, you know, just knowing for whoever is listening to know that the options are about as limitless as your imagination, then fill in those gaps with experience and life. And then you'll figure out what way works. And it may not look like your imagination, paints it right. I mean, again, I thought I was going to go only do cause work and then somehow still have like money to pay the mortgage and do my side projects and all this stuff, right? I had need to adjust along the way to say, Oh, well, I'm still going to need to be on a Slack channel about some autopilot project I'm working on, right? Still a reality. But that's a choice. Like all of that is a choice that I get to make. And it feels really different than the choices I had earlier.

Kaila Tova 1:14:14

Whether you're dropping out or dropping in or somewhere in between, I just want to honor your journey. It's not easy living in this precarious world. It's not easy to work a job that isn't aligned with your passions, and it's not easy to turn your passion into a job. I just want to share Jennifer's parting thoughts from her final Audio Diary as a way to honor you wherever you are, because facing down the future, regardless of the path you choose takes courage.

Jennifer Saminathen 1:14:41

So that's what I wanted to end with is just this courage of trying something new. So instead of looking at our failures and our imperfections, let's look at this with another lens and say, Hey, try something new takes a lot of guts. And I wrote an entire blog post about this as well just because it was so heavy. Yeah, just the courage to stand up and do something now. I'm really proud of us forand that is all I have to record for this week. I will see you next week.

Kaila Tova 1:15:33

I won't see you next week. As you listen to this. I'll be entering the end of my first semester of my PhD program at the University of Wisconsin Madison, and I'm hard at work at bringing you a season two, please continue to subscribe to the Patreon patreon.com slash body brand pod and share this podcast with your friends, family members. And that one acquaintance from high school really, really really wants you to buy protein powder from her through your Facebook messages. And if you've got a story to share positive or negative about your experience as a wellness entrepreneur, please record a voice memo or shoot me an email at your body your brand at gmail. com. You can also connect with me on Twitter and Instagram at body brand pod and I look forward to speaking with you soon. See you in season two

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Kaila PrinsJuly 7, 2021