Four: Dangerous Investments

No one wants to consider sunk cost, whether financial or otherwise. Losing capital in a capitalist society is a sign that you’ve failed — and especially in America’s culture of the self-made man, failure is just something that we don’t tolerate. We’re not failing at breaking the glass ceiling, we’re succeeding at harnessing alternative income streams. We’re not failing at body positivity or fat acceptance or self-love, we’re just works in progress, trying to push until we don’t have anything left. We’re going to succeed -- even if it kills us.

In this episode we're diving headfirst into a niche corner of economic theory: Identity economics. Using a theory put forth by Professors George Akerlof and Rachel Kranton, we're going to look deep into our own motivations for buying into "healthy lifestyles" and selling them back to others.

Sources:

"Economics and Identity" by George Akerlof and Rachel Kranton

Identity Economics: How Our Identities Shape Our Work, Wages, and Well-Being by George Akerlof and Rachel Kranton*

Who Cooked Adam Smith's Dinner? A Story of Women and Economics by Katrine Marçal*

*Amazon affiliate links

Transcript

Sarah Vance 0:00

We still don't get paid what I believe we're worth

Tiana Dodson 0:03

I had secretly been wanting to try health coaching

Carrie Ingoglia 0:06

women have been dropping out

Andi Zeisler 0:08

your body is the next frontier of liberation.

Stefani Ruper 0:12

You have to monetize,

Sarah Banet-Weiser 0:13

we buy into this idea that anyone can do this,

Victoria Ferriz 0:16

your body becomes proof

Kelly Diels 0:17

whether or not we're trying to sell a service or product. All women are brands

Brenda Swann 0:21

now I'm a health coach.

Kaila Tova 0:25

My name is Kaila Tova. And this is your body, your brand episode for dangerous investments.

Summer Innanen 0:34

It all started with CrossFit. Well, I mean, it started before that, because I was always like, just hyper obsessed with trying to lose weight. But CrossFit was really the catalyst that made me think, oh, fitness is cool. That's summer in and in the body image coach, I went to my trainer, and I was like, What can I do to try and change my body? And he was like, you can change your diet. And he says, like, here's what you can do. And so I, that's what, that's what triggered me into paleo. And because it actually did change my body a little bit start, like most of us do. I became just obsessed with it. And because it was, it also had like, such a big online community component to it. And like, there's, like, you know, like the leaders of the movement, who are just kind of preaching how it can like, treat all these different illnesses. And, you know, you're going to like, quote, unquote, look good naked. And like, all this stuff, like, it just said, All my insecurities. It was like, oh, here's the solution to all my fears, and all my insecurities. And so I got so into it. And then, you know, I'm, I do enjoy learning about, like science and like, why things work. And so when I got into kind of, like, the physiological side of that way of eating, and drinking, that I was taking in made total sense to me. And it was the same thing. It was like, Oh, wait, we've been told all this stuff that's wrong. You know, like, that rebellious side of me was like, I want to fight against the system. So I want to advocate for paleo, I want to teach other people paleo. And so that's kind of what got me into it. And so you know, that's why I went back to school to become a nutritionist, because I wanted to be able to teach it, and all that stuff and got super into it. And, you know, like, was, was how to, you know, started my business in that space and was helping women and specifically it was it was around weight loss. You know, and, and, you know, I ended up I was working for the, you know, for the whole 30 for a while, which I think, you know, a lot of people who know me know that I represented them in Canada for for about a year or so. And, and, and then you know, when the wheels fell off in my own life in terms of like realizing the damage that that obsession was doing to my body, I slowly had stepped away from it. So I didn't just like that break up with it completely. Because it was such a rocked my world like it's it's shook my world, so big to, to realize that I had these problems. That to kind of step away from like that community, my career, what I thought was like my biggest passion to do that, with the flip of a switch, I would never have been able to do that I had to really kind of like slowly kind of see the light and slowly step out of it.

Kaila Tova 3:34

This episode is going to begin with a little introduction before you have the chance to meet the rest of our guests. So so far, we've talked about diet culture, women dropping out of the workforce and branding. Today, we're talking economics and identity. Alright, so pardon the dictionary definition, but we got to get this out of the way. According to the American economics Association, economics is this study of scarcity, the study of how people use resources doesn't respond to incentives, or the study of decision making. Most economists traditionally assume that all decisions that humans make about resources are rational, therefore, we can study them through economics. But within economics, there's a study of behavioral economics, which assumes that human decision making is irrational, according to Wikipedia, and I chose that source because the definition was the most concise. It's the study of the effects of psychological, social, cognitive and emotional factors on the economic decisions of individuals and institutions. In other words, it's the study of factors outside of rational calculations that might affect how you make your seemingly rational decisions. within the field of behavioral economics, there's an even smaller, less well known area of inquiry, and that's where we're going to land today, the study of the economics of identity. The concept of identity economics was first put forth in a paper and then a resulting book by professors George Akerlof and Rachel Crampton. Identity economics takes behavioral economics to I personally think a more useful place per acre loft and granton's groundbreaking August 2000 article in the Quarterly Journal of Economics, identity economics introduces identity, a person's sense of self into economic analysis. It uses social difference to build a model of behavior, and even seeks to explain how notions of identity evolved within a society and some in the society have incentives to manipulate those notions of identity. I'm going to quote a little bit from the article. If you do want to see the exact quotes, please make sure that you go to the show notes for today's episode, we're all linked to this article. So identity economics uses social difference to build a model of behavior. And it even seeks to explain how notions of identity evolved within a society and some in the society have incentives to manipulate those notions of identity. This month model of economics is incredibly useful when analyzing the allure of the body based business and why some women choose to drop out of the workforce to start one. According to acre law and granting individuals decisions are driven not only by idiosyncratic tastes, but also by internalized social norms. So what does this have to do with sexism in the workplace or fear of weight gain as we've talked about, in the first two episodes, well consider the following. As Christie Harrison, Melissa Toler and I discussed in the first episode, we live in a world where we are constantly being reminded of social norms. One such norm that affects people who identify as women is the norm of caring about how you look a viewing your physical appearance as your sense of worth, self or otherwise. And as humans, we are social and tribal creatures, we seek to associate with the people whose norms fit with ours. So like the snake eating its tail, we create communities around our internalized norms, and then that reinforces the norms we follow and perform so that we can remain in those communities. From paleo Facebook groups to Monday nights Soul Cycle class from Weight Watchers meetings to Bikini Body accountability groups, we see other women modeling the norms that we perceive for ourselves, and we seek to fit in. As echo often Crampton point out in their book, following a norm is seen as a way to prove something important about yourself to others. norms establish our identities and community with others, they prove our value and for the book, at least some level of belief in the norms for their own sake is necessary to prevent the norms from unraveling. But if norms like dieting and hating your body and under eating and over exercising are bad or damaging, then why don't we do things like buy products that help us practice them or leave our jobs to promote them? Well, when you've internalized something so much that it becomes a part of your belief system, it's not that easy to just kick a belief to the curb, right, you need to see solid and sometimes repeated proof that the belief is a wrong one. And in the culture in which we live, we very rarely get proof that dieting is bad or thinness isn't the ultimate goal because we're bombarded by messages stating the opposite. And we're continuously rewarded with both social and financial capital when we perform the act of dieting or showing off our fitness. And well people of all genders do diets dieting is a gendered norm because thinness, smallness and visible signs of youth and sexual health or fertility have been considered signifiers of female value for as long as patriarchal societies have existed, even after women stopped being considered currency, internalized notions of the female body and how it acquires and maintains value persisted, which means that people who believe in these norms are likely to continue perpetuating them, and to be susceptible when those norms are exploited for economic gain. As with that, you know, our modern understanding of dieting kind of dates back to the 1800s when industrialization increased wealth and made food more abundant, if you can believe it, there was a time in our history when ample bosoms and wider wastes fell by the wayside because it was fashionable to look as though you were poor and dying of tuberculosis diet obsession kicked into high gear, though with the increase in the availability and penetration of the mass media, along with the growth of photography as an art form. You know, when there's products to push and body image to be concerned about it's fairly easy for an advertiser to prey upon these newly discovered insecurities. Aiko often crafted grant and explain that advertising and here I'll extend that into marketing has an effect on not just the perpetuation, but the creation of social norms. They right marketing researchers and others outside of economics have long understood this point, gender ideas and norms are an obvious place to look. The purpose of advertising is often to make people want a product in order to live up to an idea deal. advertising is the reason that women shave their legs for example, Gillette saw an opportunity for increasing their profits by selling razors to the previously untapped 50% of the population. And they did so by leveraging the fashion norms of the day. Shorter dresses were suddenly in vogue and people's sense of shame. You wouldn't want a man to see a hairy leg, would you? So, if we take a look at the ways in which we see women acquiring value in the present day, we see a couple of options. One, she can be privileged enough to get an education in business or stem have the right connections and fight her way to the top of the economic and corporate food chain or two. She can do a 30 day cleanse, get a ton of likes on Facebook or Instagram and call herself a health coach so she can teach other women how to diet. Which one sounds easier. At the same time. When we do choose to go for option one is Carrie and golyer discussed in Episode Two, we're constantly reminded of our not maleness. So Katrina Marcel, author of the book who cooked Adam Smith's dinner a story of women in economics has a chapter on gender in which she writes it is only woman who has a gender man is human, only one sex exists. As such Marsal reasons women can only create or obtain value when they are acting engendered, ie like a man see the invention of the pantsuit and the proliferation of shoulder pads in the 80s. Anything to change the shape of the body to appear more masculine, Marcel rights woman can only gain entry to the categories that count economically and politically if she leaves her body on the other side. In other words, if we're not constructing ourselves in opposition to men, say as housewives, caretakers, teachers, etc, then to enter into the corporate workforce and to expect to make a living is to leave the female coded body behind. But that was then and now the Internet has opened up a third way. One in which we can create value for and extract value from a community of other women specifically by using our bodies. You know, in some ways, body based businesses or body as brand is a reclamation of economic force from patriarchal norms, and and others it's throwing up our hands and conceding that we can never move past our bodies like men can. So think back to Episode Two when Kerry discussed what it was like to be a woman in the workforce without female leadership or female peers. In this situation, you are constantly reminded of your femaleness, your outsider status, your identity, ding, ding ding, Aker law firm current and bring up the topic of priming in their book. priming describes why people behave differently when they are anti quote, reminded even subtly other racial, ethnic and gender identities. So when you're in a situation where you are being primed to feel different to feel female, you may without even realizing it, begin to unconsciously seek out things that make you feel valued and normal within the context of your identity, things that a woman might do, like dieting, and what we're going to discuss today is the logical extension of that search for gender normal value, capital, being liked and getting paid, feeling like you have an economic youtility a sense of agency and a community. Three things that traditionally male forms of employment rarely offered to women, identifying people, and three things that the internet tells you you can gain by exploiting your body image concerns and the body image concerns of others. I want to jump back now to a conversation we started in the first episode with Melissa Toler.

Melissa Toler 13:41

So I want to talk a little bit about the fitness world, because I have personal experience there as well, it is, it can be very motivating, and inspirational, and it can feel very, almost like you're on a mission to do something. And I want to talk a little bit about the mindset that that created for you, specifically, when you were focusing on your body and how lean it was, etc. Yeah, you know, it's, it's the whole fitness in the whole fitness and bodybuilding world, it's, it's very achievement oriented, and your achievement is how lean you are and what you do to get to that point. And the mindset is that it's, I was actually just thinking about this yesterday, when I saw someone post about this, and it just made me think like, it's, it becomes the most important achievement almost in your life. The way that when you see people who are in fitness competitions or in the fitness world, they equate getting lean as like this major accomplishment, like you just like discovered the cure for something. And that sort of the mindset that you have, like, this is the most important thing that you can be doing this is what separates you from the other people. So there was also that whole thing about just being elite or different. And, and superior. Really, yeah, that's, yeah, that, that that is

Kaila Tova 15:25

it. You know, it's, it's so interesting. When we, when we look at, you know, the bodybuilding world, you know, I was there as well. And I was in this intense body hatred, like intense. And at the same exact time, I had these like, delusions of grandeur, almost, about what I was doing, and how, you know, I used to look around at the people around me and see flab and, you know, different sizes, and just think, you know, I did something that these people will never be able to do. And it's also so my mission. Yeah, help make them do it as well. Yep. Right. Like, we kind of become self appointed inspirational figures or something like, yeah, you know, andI think that that, for me, was my first experience as a brand. If that makes any sense, because I felt like when I posted a picture online, or I checked in at the gym, what I was doing was suddenly available to other people as something that they could now consume, if that makes sense. Mm hmm. Right. And it was, and like, I believed that I also was going to make money from it. I don't know, if you have the same feelings like reading oxygen magazine and seeing all the the women who are sponsored by this, that and the other protein powder or whatever, I believed that if I got to a point where I was even more elite than I already was, people would pay me to be thin.

Melissa Toler 17:01

I thought I could make money from it as well. I don't know if I thought about sponsorships. I don't know how I thought I was going to make money. But it's just funny when I think back, that's just it seems like that's just the way it was. There were messages that I got that told me that I could make money being thin, and being lean and inspirational quotes and all. Yeah, it was just like, that's the thing that you do. And I also at times had that same thinking like I'm doing this and other people aren't doing this. So there's something special about me and I'm getting up at five o'clock in the morning and I'm going to the gym and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, all of that stuff that comes along with it. But that was and probably still is the culture in that space.

Kaila Tova 17:56

The fitness, nutrition and body image world offers with in the opportunity to achieve in ways they cannot access in their quote unquote, real careers. As Melissa stated, there are messages everywhere that tell you you can and should be monetarily rewarded for being thin. Nearly every woman I talked to for this podcast started their story by talking about dieting and obsessing about their bodies. Few started their story talking about how much they hated their jobs. However, most did talk about how once they got invested emotionally with their workout or their diet regimens, and more specifically, the communities both online and off that promote those workouts and diet regimens, that they began to see ways to monetize. Here's Bethany Edwards, a science professor at Berkeley.

Bethanie Edwards 18:44

So I mean, Bethanie Edwards, actually Dr. Bethanie Edwards, have a PhD in oceanography. I'm a scientist. And I guess I kind of as a side job kind of flirted with the idea idea of being a fitness model or being a social media influencer. And you know, that all kind of came about. I guess, I, I've always been someone who like worked out to like, eat, right, like, I worked out so that I can eat whatever I wanted to eat and not have to worry about it. And that was the you know, all right. But, you know, I started I think I had a foot injury. And like, my thing I did was running, I always ran, had a foot injury until I like picked up Bikram yoga. And then, you know, to heal myself, and it was war impact. And then from there, I got introduced to a another form of yoga, which I actually became an instructor in and you know, that's where I think I kind of got kind of ingrained into, like, the Instagram yoga challenges, and, and they have a very specific way of eating and kind of, I would say, encourages people to consider green free dairy free eating. And so, you know, I kind of took that on and did their like 30 day, detox, cleanse, whatever it was, and then you know, I was converted, like, that's what we did, you know, and I think there's nothing wrong with being green for your day. But it definitely, I think for people who maybe don't have the healthiest relationships with food, and people who are maybe going into health, I have lupus or I have some autoimmune disease, that just might help me more like I want to be skinny me I want to fit this mold of you know, what is an aesthetically pleasing and it can be dangerous, it can definitely be dangerous. And so from there, I took it one step further and I you know, kind of got ingrained into that and Instagram world and I mean, I don't have a lot of followers at all, but I was you know, consuming the media all the time. And as instructors were encouraged to you know, post on social media, and you know, get involved in these challenges tag all these people use all these hashtags. And you know, and so I definitely you know, started just consuming that media all the time and I started seeing all these Instagram like fitness model of women here competing with I PB and with the W BFS and all these different fitness Federation's and you know, it's really inspiring to see these women like working so hard and getting up every morning and really challenging their bodies and you know, so I decided to do that and that just know what was already kind of like, me being grain free, dairy free and like eating a bit of rice after work because I work in Italian restaurant and sometimes I eat some of the risotto after work and then like, feeling guilt and shame over it for three days. You know, am I going on this forum with all these other yoga YouTuber? Living the screen free dairy free lifestyle for the most part, and like some post after post of being like, Oh my god, I had a piece of pizza at a kid's birthday party and I'm bloated. Oh my god, I can't breathe so bloated. It was just like post after post after post of all these women being like I am so bloated and then it is like, we are strong, successful women with way more to think about them like whether or not you can you like to add or not know.

Kaila Tova 22:43

Akerlof and Kranton's paper on identity economics helps explain why smart accomplished people like Bethany end up partaking in detrimental and obsessive behaviors. In their construction of identity economics, they say that identity, one can explain behavior that appears directly mental, because people may use their behavior to bolster a sense of self or savage diminished self image to it underlies a new type of externality meaning that your actions can have meaning for and devote responses and others. So if you're the one person in the room who isn't dieting, you may find yourself ostracize where if you're the one in the room with ABS, you may find yourself being exhausted. Three, it reveals a new way that preferences can be changed, acre loft and grant and note that notions of identity evolved within a society and some in the society have incentives to manipulate them. So when we as a society become more and more obsessed with identifying as fit, lean, clean, etc. There are some people who find ways to manipulate these identities for profit. So we then see more and more advertising that reinforces these notions of identity as well as with social media, the creation of influencers to help perpetuate those profits. And finally, identity maybe the most important economic decision people make. As the author state individuals may more or less consciously choose who they want to be. Obviously, within limits as poverty, labor, supply, schooling and other factors can force People's Choice. All of this to say, Bethany is not alone and suddenly finding herself falling down the rabbit hole of internet forums and influencer posts despite the clear dangers to her mental health, and the better alternatives in her path. As women identifying people, we are constantly being primed. Every time we log on to the internet, we see gendered norms being performed and rewarded in very visible, visceral sorts of ways. likes and followers are tallied and displayed. Free yoga clothes and protein powders and supplements are proudly displayed by affiliates and ambassadors work from home fit printers post their yoga flow at noon while you're eating your sad lunch at your desk. And the activity in your friends Beachbody Facebook group seems a lot more exciting than the report you know, you have to write even though no one's going to read it. We are aware that fitness or leanness or fitness or beauty of a very specific kind gets rewarded, because nearly every message we've heard since the first time someone uttered Aren't you pretty at your two year old birthday party has reinforced that belief. And the internet and the people who perform body images brand has simply amplified and made it easier for us to access those messages. The Internet reminds us with almost every click and scroll that pretty is more important and more valuable than any other endeavor for a woman. And it also gives us the opportunity to cash in on that perceived value. So you're, you know, you're you're a doctor, like you have a doctorate you have achieved the ultimate of what personally I think is success. What What is it about that that makes you think you have to leave to do something else like to be have a business based on your body? Like what what what what is the motivation? I guess,

Bethanie Edwards 26:01

you know, it's really hard to say I think it originally it was monetary. You know, I was like, Oh, I see all these women like making money coaching people, I already have this skill set, you know, so, you know, I think part of it is monetary. I think you know, part of it is be like the draw and alert, you know, you the you see these girls lives on Instagram, and you can help be like, Oh my god, I wish I was in like a week white marble hotel and see me drinking a smoothie like Yeah. And so there is kind of this, this silly vanity to it, where you're like, oh, like 100 of my friends love this picture of me on the beach. You know, like, I can monetize that and live this fabulous life and barely, you know, not barely work, bang, I have a job. another job. But I'm like, you know, I can be, you know, live in this Jet Set life. But it's not really like that, you know, that takes one immense amount of time and energy to build a social media following whether in a paid to just show up to things like GIFs social media influencer. And then on top of that, it's really I mean, not a super healthy mindset. Yeah.

Kaila Tova 27:22

Yeah. Well, the it's like, it's like the sense of like, we need to run away from having a career from being apart. You know, like, it will, it should be easy, I should just get paid for showing up, right? I mean, because I'll be honest, like, I spent several years doing the exact same thing, like our trajectories are so similar minus the part where I actually have a successful other career. Because I just dropped out of the workforce, because I just can't anymore. But that's fine. Maybe finding your passion doing that thing. You know, that's the goal. But I mean, really, at this point, I'm don't even have a passion. I'm just like, I just need to not be in a place where men tell me how to do my job. That's, that's really where I'm, you know, so for me, it's like, well, I'm in a dead end career that I only started because I had anorexia, I needed something I could do while I was in therapy. You know, as opposed to like working towards a goal, which I guess that's next. But you know, but there's something that's really alluring about this idea of like fast cash, we're sitting on the beach, right? fast cash, we're just doing the thing that I do to control my emotions anyway. It's like, well, if I just do yoga, because I love it, and then I can get paid to keep doing it. Why would I not do that? Right?

Bethanie Edwards 28:40

Right? Absolutely. Yeah.

Kaila Tova 28:46

It is so easy to fall into this way of thinking. The goal of fitness marketing is to find ways to make you identify with the people on the page or the screen to rope you into the identity of being a fitness person or a clean eater, the kind of person who would buy the products and wear the gear and sign up for the classes and commit to making those purchases and investments a lifestyle, not a diet. But of course, when you're busy feeling inspired by these messages, you may not actually stop to think about the motivation behind the inspiration, or what may be doing to your own relationship with your body or your mental or emotional health. So a few years ago, Sarah Vance, a body image coach started a hashtag that addressed some of the problems of inspiring people through fitness marketing. Sarah is a former bodybuilder whose identity as a fitness person led to disordered eating and poor body image.

Sarah Vance 29:38

I recently started, you know, this awesome hashtag, is fuck your fitspo. And the reason why I did that is mainly because of how fits bow is portrayed on internet or fitness in general, when it's just a load of bullshit, the fitness mentality or the fits Bo mentality really is all about, you know, punishment, and very much go hard go home. It's all driven by aesthetics. And in general, it's damaging and that's really the biggest thing that that is so frustrating for me is that it's damaging, it's impractical and it really doesn't help people for you know, that's that's really what what it's supposed to inspire people rights inspire people to start down this fitness routine. But when you when you really look into fits bow the culture in and of itself, it's actually pretty damaging. And it's it's not based on any type of evidence, it's based out of fear mongering, it's based out of, you know, prying off of people's insecurities. It's obviously rooted in diet culture, it's rooted in self doubt, it's rooted in fat phobia. So all the things that are completely out of alignment with what I truly believe and what I actually believe that I guess if you had to, I hate the word fitness in general these days, I just hate that term. But if we had to talk about fitness, I guess it would be not really what fitness is about, because it's really driven by by a look at very X, Y and Z way of having fitness be curated on the internet. And it's damaging it's that's the biggest thing of why I hate it so factor fits about really is about just calling out the bullshit that fits about talks about such as the go hard go home mentality, such as push through pain, such as if you want it bad enough, all that stuff, which is just a load of shit that doesn't inspire people. If it does, it comes from a place of shame. And as we both know, from the work that we've done, and the research that we've done, shame doesn't really help people in the long term to help them if you're really wanting to help somebody quote unquote, be be healthy, which is kind of the base of what's fits bow really tries to sell which is a lie. It's all all based off of, you know, an appearance, its appearance driven, they really don't give a shit about you as a whole. So yeah,

yeah, it's totally not about health. That actually that brings up a funny thing. A co worker of mine, literally yesterday, was talking to another co worker near my cubicle. And they were talking about bodybuilding because my co workers a bodybuilder, but he says he's doing it in a healthy way or whatever. Yeah, I call bullshit. But okay. Yeah. So but my coworker was talking about it and something about like Khattab realism and how like, you know, your muscles start eating themselves. And so you have to be like doing whey protein and casein protein and timing your meals. And he's like, I've never met a protein I didn't like, but then the funny thing is, he's like, Oh, yeah, there are these bodybuilder guys who they like wake themselves up in the middle of the night to eat protein powder, so that their muscles don't start eating themselves or whatever. And I just I looked up over my cubicle. And I said, so that's why I stopped bodybuilding. And maybe that's not healthy. And he was like, well, it's really it's not. It's like, if you want it, you have to go for it. Right? Like, if this is something you want, you have to, you really have to just do it and commitments like, well, so so you're not talking about health, you're talking about a look, you're talking about the aesthetics, if you want to look a certain way, yeah, don't get sleep and put your body under stress and also be eating processed powder, that Lord knows what the heck is actually in that stuff. And then then, then you're healthy, because you have extra big muscles or whatever.

Yeah, so it all goes back to like, Okay, so what is it and it is, you know, this, it's an appearance, and oftentimes, it's, it's not just the appearance of sia, it's what we've been conditioned to believe that goes along with that appearance, is really what we all buy into. Because if we didn't have that story attached that certain look, then we really wouldn't probably the majority of us wouldn't really give a shit. But this still ties into the bigger picture of that privilege and all of that it's just now you know, kind of bled over into the fitness industry, where it looks slightly different, but it's the same bullshit it's it's the story that we've attached to it, that this is fame and money and worthiness and success. And then you try it hard enough. And you know, you're not lazy and you're, you're a go getter in life, and all the girls or boys or whatever the fuck are going to love you and find you attractive, and you're going to be confident, and you're going to be able to be beach body ready all the time and all this other bullshit, it's it's the story that's attached to that body, that that is the it, that we, as a culture really crave. And it's, it's intoxicating. And it's it's quite sad, especially when you've been in in and you know what that's like, and you see people that are in it. But you know, as you know, when you're in it, you're almost kind of blind to it at the same time.

Kaila Tova 34:49

When you're in it, you can't see it. When you've made an investment, it's in your best interest not to see it. All investments come with a certain amount of risk. But we make that based on faith in the messages we hear about said risk. So when society is turning up the volume on the idea that investing in a body based business like becoming a an influencer, a bodybuilder, a blogger, a cookbook writer, a reality celebrity of some kind is a safe bet, while at the same time marketing messages are targeting people just like you and showing you ways to identify as a body based brand. Well, why wouldn't you take that risk? Why wouldn't you invest? If it's sexy to wear as strong as the new skinny t shirt and take butts selfies and call that a career? Why wouldn't everyone do it fits bow tells us that we're accomplishing something important in ways that our bosses never do. And when we gain social capital and financial capital, from working from home on our asanas faster than we do sitting in traffic on the morning commute? Well, I mean, it's easy to see why women would want to invest in a body based identity. And I see this when I have coworkers, especially because most of my friends are the people around me who I've curated, who are already very like into body positivity, fat acceptance, etc. So it's, yes, there are people who still kind of have those conversations sometimes, but for the most part, we tend to not talk about bodies, unless we're talking about social justice issues. But like, coworkers, especially listen it like overhearing, you know, in the lunchroom, or, you know, just on the way to a meeting where they're suddenly talking about, I have to get back to the gym, I start or you know, or they start talking about like, Oh, I'm thinking about doing XYZ, I just, it makes me sad, because what happens when you read oxygen, or Muscle and Fitness or any of these magazines is you see the pretty pictures of these people who look like the aesthetic ideal, right? That that our culture is currently upholding strong as the new skinny, etc. But you don't see any of the specific story behind that you don't see the sacrifice and the pain and the sadness and the fear. And there is a lot of that. And all of it, as you mentioned earlier, it's tied to numbers, not just numbers in terms of calories and exercises, but also it's tied to capital. We are, you know, like one of my biggest fears for all of us is that we are not aware of specifically what capitalism means in terms of the body.

It is toxic to us because we are constantly trying to accumulate more, right? more friends, more followers, more people to love us. More sponsorships, more money, more opportunities, all of these things are all different types of capital. And as you mentioned, what happens well as you progress, you get to that level, but because we're taught that the way to get those things is to strive not to stall, you have to continue, quote unquote, getting better. But but better, that doesn't always mean better, right? You're constantly looking for things to fix or improve, as you mentioned, and I think that is a conversation we don't have

Sarah Vance 38:11

it's the constant quest of this is not good enough, I am not good enough, or I do not have good I don't have enough. It's a constant place of scarcity, where it's it's it's that constant driving force of more and more and more and more and more on Mary on many different levels, from body to money to followers to clients to all of it, it's it's that constant quest. And it's it's also you know, how it intersects with with perfectionism where it's, it's okay, well, this is, you know, the next level next level, and this isn't good enough. So what is next? It's the grind, right? It's in the grind that fits bill loves so much the blood sweat and tears in the in the grind, which I hate. So yeah, I mean, it's definitely tied to capitalism, and especially if you already somebody that has been invested, you know, in something like multi level marketing, or you quote unquote, made it big out of your fitness realm or whatever. And now you have so much invested in it, not only with your body and followers, but actual monetary value. Yeah, that is so difficult to have somebody get out of because you're not only asking them to face their internalized fears around their body, but now you're asking them to possibly have very a lot of discomfort related to a shift in in money. Because as you know, it's it's a lot freakin harder to say to somebody, why don't you just move your body for pleasure? or whatever or not? Or you know what, you don't even have to move your body do whatever the hell you want to do you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's that does not make money. telling somebody and selling the constant quest of weight loss or thinness or lean this or Whoa, that's why we have a $60 billion industry. Yes, why we have people that are 20 years old, freakin that are millionaires because off the off of multi level marketing. I mean, it's, it's crazy when you think about it. And it's all based out of that. I mean, it's mind blowing

Kaila Tova 40:19

it is. And it scares me, because, you know, yes, there are people who do it and function just fine. And they're, they're happy in their little world, but they don't, what people don't realize is like, until the entire culture shifts, there are going to be entire populations at very high risk. You know, I had a fitness or fitness and health blogger person who I became acquaintances with. And we had some conversations about the fact that she is a full blown anorexic, and she was not giving up her quote, unquote, business, because she's, quote, unquote, helping people. And by helping people, she's getting money, so she doesn't have to work. And all she can do is focus on her food and fitness all day. And so it's keeping that capital is absolutely, as you said, that investment is keeping her trapped, you know, and part of my exercise addiction, it was the investment, you put so much money into getting your body a certain way, that when you have to stop doing that, it's like, well, did I just waste all my money? Did I just waste all my time, those are precious resources that I don't get back. So I should just continue investing. I mean, obviously, we don't necessarily have this as a conscious conversation with ourselves. But you know, it's like, I need to continue investing, because otherwise this will be all for not even though my leg is broken, my arm is torn, my ribs are falling out, you know what I mean? Like, just like, we get to the point where capitalism is literally violence against the body. I know, that sounds like so like, you know, I'm sure the police are coming from me right now. So sorry. But like, it really is. And it worries me that we don't know how to navigate that, especially in a world where you can make tons and tons of money online by putting a Facebook ad with your abs on it.

Sarah Vance 42:08

Right, you know, like, or, or before and after photo. I mean, it's, it's so in, it goes back to what I was saying before is that I don't think that we realize how damaging This is, like, like you said, it is violent, it's extremely damaging to not only the individual that's selling it, even if they think that their life is you know, they're fine, and they're functioning fine, I'm going to call bullshit on that, because I just don't. That is their life. And I guess if that is what somebody values, then you know, more power to you. But when you really get into it, I doubt that that's what's really important to them, if they died the next day, I don't think that that's what they would actually value. But, you know, it's also damaging to a variety of people from people that have a history of eating disorders to people that are susceptible, do you know having an eating disorder to people that are fat to ever human beings that are just dealing with, you know, self doubt, in general, it's damaging to all these people. And it perpetuates the bigger picture of the epidemic of fat phobia that we have in diet culture, which we know is extremely problematic, and it doesn't help anybody. It doesn't help anybody. it harms all people, regardless of where you fall on the size spectrum.

Kaila Tova 43:24

No one wants to consider their investments bad. No one wants to consider sunk cost whether financial or otherwise, losing capital in a capitalist society is a sign you failed. And especially in America's culture of the self made man or you know, woman, failure is just something we don't tolerate. When we leave the workforce to become a fitness brand. We're not failing at breaking the glass ceiling in our corporate jobs. We're just succeeding at harnessing alternative income streams. We're not failing at body positivity or fat acceptance or self love. We're just works in progress trying to push until we don't have anything left, we're going to succeed, even if it kills us. To discuss this phenomenon I interviewed Victoria for He is also a former bodybuilder and a filmmaker who's working on a documentary called Fitz Bo.

One of the things that I'm particularly interested in is this idea that your body is your social capital. And sometimes your social capital becomes attached to your actual, like monetary capital. So for example, when I became a bodybuilder, part of my decision, the initial impetus was social capital. My boyfriend at the time told me that I wasn't worth anything unless I looked a certain way in, you know, different words, but there was it looked like Jamie Ethan. Yeah, exactly. That story. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So just briefly explain for the podcast listeners. He hinted at what I should look like by telling me his favorite fitness model was Jamie Easton. And he loved the way she looked, and also have I considered dead lifting. So I did, I looked up her, I looked up her workouts, I looked up her meal plans, and I followed them to a tee. And by the end of the three months when I supposed to see him again, because we were long distance at that point, I didn't look like Jamie's and so I broke up with him, because I was afraid of him. But what happened is after I followed him, like a Muscle and Fitness hers challenge that was going to be my way of looking like Jamie. People started telling me that I could really do this as a career, you know, Hey, have you thought about becoming a personal trainer so that you could teach me how to look like you have, you know, and then I started really reading those magazines with an eye toward the people who are doing this for a living, right, the people who were getting sponsorships, the people who had affiliate deals, the people who were being profiled who were being flown around the country to judge competitions, and suddenly it became about the monetary capabilities. Suddenly, I didn't have to be a failing artist in New York City. And I didn't have to be a retail worker in Boca Raton, I could be a world renowned bodybuilder fitness competition person, and like make my money by being sponsored by some pre workout or a, you know, a clothing brand. And I see this across, it's not just bodybuilding. I see it as, like, go on Instagram, if you do any kind of body sport, yoga pole dance, like sucker. Who cares, whatever it is, the people who are making money are the ones with affiliate deals, sponsorships, and tons and tons and tons of followers.

Victoria Ferriz 46:46

It's a lot harder to make money doing that nowadays, because now everybody is, you know, like with social media, like I interviewed a BB Pro, Roxy Beccles, and she talked about how we, when she started using social media, when social media like Instagram first came out, she was she was doing that she was using social media to market herself and her services for personal training and stuff. But now everybody's doing it. So you know, it's not that rare. And now, you know, awareness. A knowledge of how to get this quote unquote perfect body is so much more out there than it used to be. So in some ways, it's much easier to become that person. So really, the gains of being sponsored are it's all an illusion, because these people most a lot of these people really aren't making any money you do have your rare exceptions like your page halfway through, I mean, I don't know how much money she's making. But I mean, she's, she's sponsored by a pretty big by a pretty big supplement company. But other people you know, like your, you know, Joseph Jane's, who just have a six pack in or are getting sponsored by, you know, supplement brand number 1057. They're not making any money off of it, because there's no money to be made, it takes it takes a lot to make money off of that. And many times what they're only getting paid in supplements. And the supplements are garbage, I mean, a lot of there's there's no regulation for for what goes into the supplements. So it's really, I think a lot of it is an illusion to like, pretend that you that you are someone to pretend that you're instantly like you're an instant, famous, you know, fitness person, when I was training for my bodybuilding competition, my my coach my team, they would hold the seminars, where, you know, we would talk about making making a living out of your body pretty much and, you know, learning to use social media to brand yourself. And, you know, some also like, multi level marketing stuff, but you know, how to how to get picked up by fitness magazines, you know, that you had to hire your own photographers. And, and the now and, you know, you, you, you have to build your own because my coach, she had done that to herself, she, she kind of built her own platform by hiring photographers, if, if nobody was getting her to to. And nobody was taking her her picture, any magazine was taking her picture, she would hire the photographers and take her own pictures to make herself relevant and to have these cool pictures. Because you know, Instagram is very, I mean, it's all images. So duh, of course, it's going to be very image oriented. But yeah, I mean, this is kind of like we were told, and then of course, after your, your competition, you go and you take your you go take your professional pictures, right after competition to, to around competition time, because that's when you're looking your best. So you know, you want those as proof to get clients. And, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different tactics that are in which you can make money off of your body in which people feel that this is going to save them. I know, I know, one girl right now, actually, who's training for a competition who when I asked her, What do you want out of this? You know, she used to be very, she used to be overweight, and she lost a lot of weight. And now she's, she's, she's trained for her first bikini competition, or last year, what do you want out of this? And she gives me these big answers about how, you know, she wants to get sponsored, you know, she thinks that may bring some opportunities to make a career out of it, you know, to become a model. And I've heard this so often, you know, these girls who get sucked into this whole lifestyle, who believe that they're going to become fitness models, and who would invest all this money and all this effort into thinking that they're going to get picked up, they're going to be discovered. And it's a very vague, they're very vague about it. It's almost like they're living in lala land, thinking that I'm not saying it can't happen. But a lot of them are very vague about it. Because they don't quite understand how the industry works. They don't understand how hard it is to make money off of this, especially now where it's kind of over saturated. You know, if you're using your body to sell, you know your Isagenix or to sell your Herbalife or to sell, you know, skinny t detox, whatever it whatever it is that you're using, or to sell your six pack bags. No, you're you're reliant on your body, too. So that for you, because your body is proof? And I don't know if I'm kind of answering your question. I think I'm deviating a little bit going going. But your body has proven that that's scary, because now you depend on your body. So I actually spoke to him. A man by the name of David Wyss, who has a center in LA where he has a clinic where he works with people who have addictions, but oftentimes, they have a comorbidity with eating disorders. So they may be, they may have a heroin addiction, but they also have an eating disorder. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of which in which they're, they're actually rather similar. And he works a lot with men with body dysmorphia. And so we, I interviewed them about this, I'm like, you know, what, what do you think about people? Who, what, why might, why might it be so difficult for people who know that they have an eating disorder, or they have an issue with where their fitness or health is no longer healthy, but there, but their, their income depends on it like that is what they made it to their body. And he gave this, you know, you'd have to watch the documentary to see what he said, but it was, it was really laid it out so beautifully. And that you're kind of stuck, you're stuck in this place of denial, where you might end up even killing yourself, because now you you depend on this for your livelihood. This has become your identity. And what do you do without it? How do you? How do you come out to people and say, Oh, shit, you know what? This whole time I was telling you all this stuff. I was maybe medicating with this isn't that because I was depressed because I no longer wanted this, you know? Or, you know, I developed an addiction to this because my body could no longer Give me the high that you know it once did. Or I developed an eating disorder or you know, I have intestinal issues because of the excessive supplement us or all the dieting or whatever, whatever. You're kind of stuck in this place where you're having to continue playing the role. Yep. Because how do you come out and say, what's really happening. And I see this with a lot of people that I used to compete with. And with this one person in particular who there's all these signs that she's no longer enjoying what she's doing. But she, she can't, she just can't like her whole, she's developed an industry she's developed Well, he's developed an empire around her body and and what she's selling, and how, I don't know that she can even admit it to herself. You know, that's the thing like how, how could you ever admit to yourself that this has become an issue, when you know, it's a scary thing to do for the regular person who has a job that doesn't depend on fitness. But when your whole identity, your whole livelihood depends on when your, you know, your mortgage, and your kids, you know, your kids education, and everything depends on that. That's a scary place. So yeah, a lot of people go into this thinking that they're going to make money off of this. But let's say you know, be very careful because your body becomes proof.

Kaila Tova 54:25

The trouble with your body as proof your body as brand, is that when your behaviors become detrimental, you have to make a choice. And if this were just about protecting your emotional or mental health, that choice might be a little easier. You could get a therapist or an accountability partner or keep a journal or start on a path toward recovery. But if you have other people who are invested socially and financially, in a certain vision of who you are as a person, your body, your behaviors, your brand, then you have much less incentive to actually make a change. In the next episode, we're going to explore what happens when body as brand becomes dangerous to your health. Even if your investors followers and fans don't see your brand as a problem.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Kaila PrinsJuly 7, 2021