Nine: What Men Feel All the Time

What drives women into multilevel marketing is the same thing that drives women into wellness entrepreneurship writ large. While MLM has codified a certain business model, wellness entrepreneurship requires the same level of commitment, often for the same slim chance at payoff.

Yet the women who remain optimistic about this business model must have a reason. And that reason is: to feel what men feel all the time.

Transcript

Sarah Vance 0:00

We still don't get paid what I believe we'reworth

Tiana Dodson 0:03

I had secretly been wanting to try health coaching

Carrie Ingoglia 0:06

women have been dropping out.

Andi Zeisler 0:08

Your body is the next frontier of liberation.

Stefani Ruper 0:12

You have to monetize.

Sarah Banet-Weiser 0:13

We buy into this idea that anyone can do this

Victoria Ferriz 0:16

your body becomes proof

Kelly Diels 0:17

whether or not we're trying to sell a service or product. All women are brands now I'm a health coach.

Kaila Tova 0:24

My name is Kaila Tova, and this is your body your brand. episode nine, what men feel all the time. Please note that this episode has been marked explicit for language and may contain triggers for people with eating disorders. This is part two of a two part episode. When we last left off with Brenda Swan, she was getting into multi level marketing she and her husband downsized into an RV and moved into an area with a lower cost of living yet that didn't help her solve it for economic problems. And she was anxious for a passive income stream to help her with her transition.

Brenda Swann 1:06

So supplements totally making feel skeezy Oh my god, yeah. And not just cheap and like a liar. And and I think having gone through all this trauma and all these different things that I've put myself through, because at the end of the day, that's really what I you know, I did it. In fact, let me tell you something, that one of the coaches came to me and said, hey, you're a bonafide You know, you're totally bonafide health coach, wedding planner, people trust you, people love you, I want to get you in this in this thing, you know, and you're going to love it. And I was like, Well, really what is and I actually respected this man, to like attorney and back. So he, he started selling this thing, this supplement, and he's telling you about it. He's like, I know, you're super picky about things that you do, and you gotta match matching up with your brand. And let me tell you about this amazing, crazy, great supplement. And he's telling me and I'm actually buying it because you know, it's a weakness, I don't know, if I'm like an alcoholic or thing where it's like, what, what here, I'm like, whoo, whoo. And he's like, when you're leaving, and you're not gonna have any income, and, but if you, you know, you helped me set this up, and you're going to set this up like this, like this, like this, and you're going to make passive income until you figure out what you're doing. You know, he's, he's saying to me, this coaches, like, you know, you should start selling this and this, how to make money and that we went, you end up in Virginia, and you don't know what you're doing it out there, you can't find a job or whatever. Because you're going to be living this Podunk town, you know, like, he was instilling the fear of like, Oh, my God, your life's gonna be over. You can have residual income from this. And then you can pick up with this over there, and then continue to make money. But think of all the money we making from all the connections and all the people, you know, here with this thing. And like I said, I was like 90%, and 90%, into the point where I came home, and I told Aiden about it. And he just kind of looked at me. And then he's like, Well, do you really want to do this?

Kaila Tova 3:00

For Brenda? The answer was probably yes. With debt hanging over her head and the fear of not having an income when she moved, this multi level marketing opportunity seemed like a timely godsend. And because she knew liked and trusted the coach who was selling her on the opportunity, she had confidence that it could be a good fit. That is until,

Brenda Swann 3:20

man, I got an email from this person saying, oh, and you know what this what else is amazing about this is that you can give it to kids, the moment he started sending me all this information about how I could sell it to not just my previous my previous clients from the winning world, but all of my health coaching people, all of my medium, all of my connections at the gyms, that anyone that I knew with children, that was like, What literally threw me on the ground. And I was like, fuck with that. How the like, it was like a wake up call, like, wait a minute, wait, what?

Kaila Tova 3:57

Brenda was especially nauseated by the idea of selling to children, because she had spent the summer before moving running a fitness program for kids. She spent her time trying to instill healthy behaviors and mindsets in her young charges. And the idea of pushing a diet supplement on them cross the line, the money factor was a major consideration, but not major enough to sway Brenda into joining a company that exploited her connections to other people's children. But that doesn't mean that she didn't think twice about her decision.

Brenda Swann 4:27

By the way, when I talked to the supposedly like the guy that launched this amazing super supplement. I said I want to talk to him. And I want to understand where this stuff is coming from. One of the things he said to me, Brenda, this is salt, salt this from the earth. Like that's literally what he said to me. And I was like, No, this isn't just salt. What What about what about all these other ingredients? You don't like okay, you lost me, but I was still being swayed by the money. You know, because I still need to make money. I need to make a living, I need to pay my bills, I need to pay my loans I need to pay with the RV I still need to financially be able to support myself and be myself and for clothes on my back. And then I said no, I'm not joining this MLM. I'm not joining this MLM. And I'm not going to tell you that I don't sometimes look at the people that are participating it that were in my circle that are like, look at me high rollers, making all this money, you know, but I can tell you that when it made its way over here to the east coast, and to the people that I've met here in the same sort of ground like at least in my in my gym, and some of the people that I've made the you know, military spouses and friends, like were the biggest were also a huge target, which is also why a lot of people would come to me because if they didn't want My Brides, they wanted my military spouses, my military spouse, friends. It's like, no, you're not, you're not preying on my people Fuck off.

Kaila Tova 5:41

But unfortunately, multi level marketing companies do prey on your people. That's exactly the point of network marketing, whether or not you actually see it as preying on someone, well, any one of your friends and your extended network might be a good target for this special business opportunity. Network. Marketers often train their sights on people who might be especially vulnerable and be swayed by the prospect of a flexible job, military wives, new moms, even people with chronic illnesses, they turn to these communities first, because they know that they won't be able to get or are looking for alternatives to a regular desk job. They also target people who signal online that they're trying to make money on the side or to participate in the gig economy. So here's a quick story for a time I had an Instagram account for my dog. But pretty much everyone who commented on it outside of my regular circle of friends was somebody in a network marketing company, they would leave these vague comments saying great content or love that shot to get me to click over to their profile and see who they were. And once I clicked over to their profile, I would find an endless array of shakes and workouts. Why would anyone do this on a dog account, we'll figure this a lot of the people who run their dogs accounts identify as women and a lot of those women are running their dog accounts well in between jobs or as a side hustle while raising children or teens. We're trying to transition out of the workforce. And there are enough viral pet accounts out there to convince a lot of people that they too should try to build a business on the back of their photogenic dog just as there are enough viral MLM coaching accounts to convince women who don't have a steady job that there's a business and posting about your workouts. I talked about this with Dana shore, a friend of mine who happens to be an essential oils consultant for a network marketing company. as a consultant Dana is of course pro network marketing. And I wanted to include her positive outlook and perspective in this conversation.

Dana Schorr 7:33

I think that's why a lot of moms and like, you know, stay at home moms or young moms get into it or whatever, or teachers as well who are around a lot of moms things like that is because you need more money, you need to help your family. But you also don't want to spend that money on a nanny right away or babysitters or daycare, you want to be home with your children. And this, the whole point is right. This allows women to do that and and then you get fundamental, another topic

Kaila Tova 8:05

and that whole different topic is what we want to focus on today. Being a mom being a teacher being a military spouse, being a domestic worker, or retail salesperson or even an artist being unable to make ends meet because you're being paid or not for quote unquote women's work means living a life that feels undervalued by capitalist standards. But multi level marketing like health coaching and personal training seems to offer another route, especially in the case of health focused MLM, you can literally wake up workout, and then go about your day. And every moment that you're using a product, posting to social channels, or lifting up your downline, you're potentially getting paid for inspiring people. You don't have to go back to school for a stem degree or an MBA or learn to code you can be considered worthy of not only running your own business, but also gaining the social capital that comes from making a living as a public inspiration, which is generally reserved for people who show up in the fortune 500, you get access to a life that feels impossible by any other standard. It was actually my conversation with Dana that helped me realize what this episode really needed to be about. And I just want to say before we dive into it, how much I appreciate people like Dana for being forthcoming about their experiences. Even when we don't necessarily agree about the business model. I think we need to be having more conversations like this one, if we want to be able to understand one another and work toward developing solutions that help women find ways to obtain value in a lopsided economy without being exploited. I'll also say that Dana isn't a stay at home mom, a military wife, or a care worker. She's a middle class woman with a college degree who very quickly realized that working in tech wasn't all it was cracked up to be here, I'll let her tell you in her own words.

Dana Schorr 9:52

I moved out to California because my boyfriend at the time was accepted to grad school out here. And he's now my head. So that worked out. That was a good, that was a good little risk to take. But I moved out here I didn't know anyone. I took me about a month to get me know, it took me almost three months to get a job. I had it you know, college degree honors all that good stuff. But it still took me a little while. And I got a job at a startup accelerator. And I was actually really excited about it. And it's my first real big, you know, adult job out of college, I done a few internships during college. But this was really the first like, in and out of an office every day. And things about it, I enjoyed Of course, I liked being around people and and a lot of the people, my direct supervisor was awesome. And some of the stuff we were doing, I was really interested in this whole startup world is kind of new to me coming from Texas. It was very Bay Area, very Silicon Valley. So I was kind of interesting things I really disliked about sort of that corporate culture. And it wasn't specifically this place I worked at, I think this happens anywhere is that if I was given a task or project and I finished it quickly, or just in less time than I anticipated, or whatever, I then had to spend the rest of the day looking busy. Right and looking like I'm and I you know, I could ask for more stuff, but they don't have anything else for me to work on, then they don't have anything else for me to work on. And so I you know, I was reading CNN, I was doing things I was trying to research what I could, I mean, I wasn't trying to intentionally just waste time and sit, you know, on the internet all day. But on the other hand, I finished what I was supposed to do, it already got turned in and approved and all that. And yet I couldn't go home, I couldn't go grocery shopping, I couldn't go to my doctor's appointments that I needed, or like whatever other things, you could think you could do that like 2pm that I just felt like, well, it's great that you're paying me whether you know, regardless that I'm not doing anything, but I'm just going to sit here for another four hours, looking at the clock trying to look busy. Just because I have to be here. And so things like that kind of irked me in the sense of like, I want my time to be used very efficiently. And if I feel like I could be doing other things during that time, I'd much rather do that. assuming you're not slacking, assuming you're actually getting your work done, right. So that kind of was you know, didn't gel with me. And then the other thing was just that, I feel like if you have one or two bad co workers, it can really affect your life. I mean, it can really, really burden you you come home, you're grumpy or sad or frustrated with something one of them said to you or something they did that day, and you know, you have to go see them again the next day. And, you know, I feel like if your week is only seven days, and only two of those days are good days and five of them, you're in misery. Like that's just no way to live. And honestly, of course, like, you got to do what you gotta do to pay the bills. And people have much worse jobs, right? We're talking about, you know, sitting in a nice air conditioned office, it's obviously on the scale of terrible life things. It's not, it's nothing bad. But you know, it's just also like, we only have one life. And I'm coming home every day like about to cry because of co workers or just because I was bored or just because I was so stressed out from being bored or whatever. You know, it just wasn't jelling with me. And so I think a lot of people, I think, in this generation, specifically, a lot of people are kind of like, I don't want to go sit in an office for nine hours a day and work or try to look like I'm working if I don't have any work, and then go home again. And really the only day I really enjoy Saturday, because Sunday is great. But Sunday, I'm thinking about Monday, and you know, but like, I think nowadays, and that's why I feel like there is a nice, big like influx of you we call it like the younger generation of network marketers coming in 16 1718 some maybe aren't even going to college, because what is college do that puts you into debt. And you may or may not get a job, it's not a it's not a for sure guarantee as it used to be right you go to college, you graduate college, you get a job, and that's kind of the path. But nowadays, that's not even really that for sure, with the economy and everything going on, and blah, blah, blah. And so a lot of people are like, well, I don't want to go, you know, hundreds of thousand dollars into debt. And then also maybe not have a job at the end of it or get a job that I hate or whatever. What are some other options, I want to be able to travel, I want to be able to work when I want to work. If I'm awake at 3am I want to work at 3am I don't want to have to worry that I have to get up at 5am you know, things like that. So we we like to talk a lot about like freedom. And it's it sounds of course it sounds wonderful. Like oh yeah, a job where you can like work, whatever you want to work and travel the world. And as long as you have internet access, you could probably, you know, connect with people and and as long as you're a traveling is great, right? Because you're accessing all these different markets and different people and their networks and all that like, yes, it sounds great. It's not that easy. And if anyone tells you it's that easy, then don't sign up.

Kaila Tova 15:28

To summarize, Dana, like me, graduated in a down economy, getting a job, a good job, a real job wasn't a guarantee, even though that was the perception when we first went to college, and even today where unemployment is at its lowest in decades, wages are stagnating below inflation. And even a real job isn't enough to guarantee a comfortable life. And though we feel like we should be grateful when we do have jobs, when that job begins to feel like it's suffocating you, you start to look for other alternatives. And they're right there on the internet and in your friends list waiting to be found. We're going to talk more about this feeling of being suffocated by your job in a future episode. So let's put a pin in Dana's frustration about her seemingly pointless career situation. And let's shift our focus to freedom. The idea that MLM creates an alternative way for women to gain capital in a society that doesn't seem to want them to.

Dana Schorr 16:25

And the way we kind of like joke about it, I guess, am I seriously in the hole? As network marketers when we talk to each other about, you know, people complaining or this or that is like, Oh, well, an office is a typical pyramid scheme, right? You got the CEO at the top, and then you have upper management and middle management and lower management and you have like all the actual workers. And you know, what is the chance or the likelihood that one of those workers at the bottom could become the CEO one day? Probably not as likely, right? Maybe, you know, maybe in the olden days, you could work your way up. But nowadays, you know, it people hire from outside or there's nepotism, or there's just who you know, and network marketing in that sense. And so that's kind of our like, Oh, that's a pyramid scheme, kind of a thing. Which is, you know, I I don't disagree with that. I think I mean, I worked in an office environment for nine months. And I, there's no way I would have ever been the CEO of that company, no matter how hard I worked. I was going to just get the salary that I was going to get. And maybe you get little promotions here, there are little bonuses or but are you ever going to be at the top of everything know, we like to say in network marketing, you know, you can or you could possibly have that possibility of sort of being at the top of your own structure. Of course, there's people above you who will benefit off of you. But that's, that doesn't affect your income.

Kaila Tova 17:56

Okay, again, to clarify, a pyramid scheme is a very special specific and illegal business model. And well, the pyramid shape of a corporate office may seem like a good comparison or a joke, as it is for Dana, it's not quite a one to one. However, Dana's got a really good point, what's the likelihood of becoming the CEO of a corporation or a startup, when you're working in the marketing department as an individual contributor, there aren't a lot of pathways to the top. Even if you were to literally devote every waking moment to your job. If you want to be an entrepreneur, if you want to have that kind of an income, you have to get out and start your own successful thing. MLM seems to offer something of a handicap, you can be the CEO of your own business. But you also have helped you have a quote, unquote proven business model behind you, you don't have to make a product or get VC or Angel funding, you get a catalog and up line, and often a lot of mentorship and support. So while MLM may not be a recipe for instant success, it at least appears on the surface to be a better alternative to the status quo. And there are enough success stories out there that they obscure the many more stories of struggle or failure,

Dana Schorr 19:06

if you can do it, if you can put in the work and the time and get there it is possible. And I've seen that I'm on the path. Like I said, I don't want to lie to anyone. I'm not this isn't my one salary right now. So I can't say I'm living off of it. But I feel like I'm on the path to. And I know a lot of people who are very wealthy now I personally know them because of network marketing. And they were single moms, they were teachers, they were a husband and wife duo that, you know, whatever the story is a famous one she's getting very well known in our company she was on should, I think three or four children already. And she they were on food stamps, and living in like motels with cockroaches and no electricity up and up in the door. It was really cold and things like that. And now they are making probably, I don't know, six figures easily high six figures. And in fact, they now did this thing with it. They call it reverse tithing, they actually give back 90% to their community and stuff like that, which is really crazy to think about going from food stamps to now that to having enough to where she, they really only need to live on 10% of it. And so, you know, these are great stories. And obviously, you know, I can probably hear all the eye rolling from maybe people listening right now. But that's kind of why people get pulled in, right because of stories like this. And it's not necessarily the norm. But on the other hand, I'm more likely to become like one of those people than I am to become the CEO of Microsoft, or, you know, whatever, right. So I'd much rather put my time and energy into something that possible and tangible. And I can see it happening in front of me every single day.

Kaila Tova 21:20

And here's the thing, at least here in America, we privilege the entrepreneurial spirit, we fetishize CEOs and pay them outside salaries, they are the ultimate influencers, and they're largely male. So well, multi level marketing may not put you on par with Bill Gates. If you get in early and you do make a lot of money running, quote, unquote, your own business, you're on that level to your downline, MLM, essentially re prioritize is gender under the neoliberal framework, and at least in theory allows women identifying people to feel what it feels like to function and be valued like a man in the economy,

Dana Schorr 21:57

having been in Silicon Valley now for a few years, and being around all this male dominated world. And then I go to our yearly convention, and it is, you know, 90% women, and the people crossing the stage and getting their names announced, are almost all women and of all different ages and sizes, and everything and, and life, you know, like all different jobs that they had previously, and all these things, that was actually really cool to see. Because I was like, is this what men feel all the time? Oh, my God, like, everyone's, like, the guys, there actually workshops where the men could go, and listen, we had some that were called, like, supporting your wife in her, you know, essential oil business and because that is an issue, like, suddenly the wife becomes a major breadwinner. And then a lot of men have an issue like dealing with that are handling what that means for their, you know, marriage or whatever. So they, our company really tries to keep people together and get the men involved because yes, it is primarily women who will start these like home based businesses, especially when it's like oils or leggings, or, you know, things that are just maybe more female oriented from the get go. And, and, of course, is all talking and major stereotypes and, and very binary definitions, but it was very cool to be just surrounded by mostly women who are killing it, and some of them. And like I said, I'm kind of on the inside track, because I know a lot of people in the higher up levels and this and that, killing it earning lots of money for their family, they're the sole breadwinner to the point where even the husband quits his job, and then joins her in on it, right. And then they become like a pair and they're there. You know, it's not, you know, Susie crossing the stage hitting rank, it's Susie and Ben crossing the you know, and doing it together, which is awesome. But it is very, very, very cool to see. And our company is actually our CEO is a female. So that's really cool. I think that makes us like the largest female operated like network marketing company, maybe in the world, I think or something crazy with it. But just stuff like that, like, as we as women really appreciate and resonate with that maybe, I don't know, if men really wouldn't realize it as much how much it means that the CEO is a female, or that the majority of the people there are female. And then it's kind of interesting, because the men have to learn, like, you know, how to succeed in a female dominated industry. And I think Haha, yes, yes, you do have to figure that out.

Kaila Tova 24:55

Being surrounded by women means that MLM provides an environment that feels different from the typical male dominated office structure, whether it's real or manufactured, there's a sense of community support and collaboration that pervades the language and ethos of multi level marketing in ways that even open office plans could never hope to imitate,

Jen Kruidbos 25:15

I was really exploring my relationship with money. And this the first time someone talked about, Hey, you know, you can build something called residual income where in a service based industry model that was totally foreign to me that oh, I can create a system that helps way more people and continues to pay me as I can start a new creative project or rest, you know, him like that was was something that he north of talked about, and I think there was you know, she'd listed a bunch of ways that you do this, whether you do real estate or you do or you know, you write a book or information product or try network marketing. So the Savannah was really positioned as Oh, this is just something to try and then I told myself, okay, what if I just did that because I thought, do I need to go in do an MBA do I do I buy another like B school style thing? I said, Well, what if I treat this as like my education, and I see how it goes. And I do it for like, I set myself the same like I'll do it for five years and just see what happens and I think once I created that, like boundary that container for myself, I was like I'm doing this to learn and a lot that gave me that more distance which helped me with my own like judgmental mind and my own fears around it. And, and I think then, people's response like how, what my one of my close yoga friends, Jen, Wendy signed up, and she just really saw it, you know, and then seen her get it and seeing her see it helps build my confidence. And then another person in in Toronto enrolled was like, Yes, let's do this. And so I really have to say, even though it's you know, I'm quote unquote, their upline like I enrolled them, and I mentor them. It said, so horizontal in the sense that like, we all help each other and we all motivate each other.

Kaila Tova 27:04

For Jen Kruidbos, the yoga teacher and essential oils consultant, some of the most rewarding parts of running her network marketing business, are being able to build a team work collaboratively and mentor and be mentored.

Jen Kruidbos 27:17

What was really fulfilling and has been really fulfilling to me is that I get to take my friends and colleagues with me, and show them that they can dream bigger for themselves in terms of their financial freedom in terms of their leadership in terms of having a community, I am just completely amazed with the amount of mentorship that I receive with the community that I get to be part of, and how I I see myself able to show up for now my team of builders, which is like over 40 people right now, which is crazy to me, which is wonderful.

Kaila Tova 27:53

For Dana, the experience is the same,

Dana Schorr 27:56

I have never felt like so be sides, like my dance studio, I've never felt so like welcomed and encouraged and supported. And you think that all these people who are really after the same thing, right, sign up everyone around you, you think we'd all be like, not sharing our secrets and our strategies and like not talking to each other. But people are so amazingly generous and sweet. And the energy that you feel at these like conventions, which of course is like the biggest one or you know, even smaller events, like local area ones or whatever. It's very, very exciting to see. Women, generally who are excited and see the possibility and have hope and really love what they do. And I think that's maybe something Unfortunately, that's too rare nowadays. And, and so that that was a big deal to me, and like all my mentors, through network marketing, and then this company, none of them are men, they're all women that I that I listened to and read their books and and talk to whenever I can, and you know, things like that. They're, they're all women. And I think that's really, really cool. Of course, I think more men should get involved with it, I think it makes you know, things easier if you're your hubby, or your boyfriend or whatever supports you while you're trying to do this. But it is kind of cool to be just surrounded by you know, 20,000 other women who are all like, just what you're trying to do what you're doing and support each other. And you see a woman on stage and I don't know stuff like that's very, very cool.

Kaila Tova 29:37

And while we could celebrate the fact that MLM do offer these opportunities to build community and support, we also have to acknowledge that that support is contingent, even in building a team of over 40 people, Jen recognizes that it's not all altruistic, this is still a business after all, but in some senses, the benefits of working together to run this business are still pretty suddenly fulfilling, because in a NEO liberal feminist sense, proving that she can generate income for herself is self affirming.

Jen Kruidbos 30:07

I mean, first of all, just the the like the new belief that it's like, oh, I can actually create a structure where I can feel like I can be earning more income than I ever thought I could, and I could have a family and I could take this activist training and I can travel here like just that has shifted my confidence so much. So just that energetic shift, and the community of knowing like at any moment, I can, I can write on a Facebook wall, or I can write to an upline or a downline, and now I have this like solid community that are literally rooting for me, not just because they're nice people, but because like my success will have an impact on their business.

Kaila Tova 30:54

But what Jen isn't saying probably because she hasn't experienced it is that if you don't succeed, then it impacts others businesses as well, negatively. So if you fail, so does everyone else. Because the community of network marketing is built on the premise of making commissions off of one another sales, that community can turn into a Mean Girls situation pretty quickly. And because you're not getting a salary, you can't blame the product or the company for your failure, Dana acknowledges that

Dana Schorr 31:23

the burden is on you the burden is not on you know, that's that's kind of it's not on the company to succeed so they can play pay their employees, right, the burden is on you to do the succeeding in order to pay yourself and so that that's definitely an interesting little. probably the scariest part of it, I would say,

Kaila Tova 31:43

community when it's financially motivated, isn't the authentic support system that it's made out to be when you're fully bought in and seeing success with your efforts? You may not think that's a problem. But what happens if you aren't performing at a level that recompense is your upline for their investment in the time it takes to try, mentor and promote you? What if you don't have the resources to invest in the team the same way that others expect you to? In our last episode, we talked to Sarah Kahn, a teacher and a former network marketer, I wanted to learn more about her experience, so we can understand why she left network marketing,

Sarah Khan 32:17

our sort of team lead the guy who started our, our team in this in this region, he was already a marketing guru, he worked for an organization as a marketing specialist. And so he, you know, and he was putting thousands of dollars a month into his own marketing, and some, for some reason expected that we would all be able to do that, we would all be able to emulate that model. And when it went kind of dawned on him that we don't have thousands of dollars of disposable income every month to throw at Facebook ads and things like that, you know, he started to come up with different ways to help support people, but ultimately did it did come down to that if you're not willing to invest some money in this, that I'm not willing to invest in you. And another, that's actually a conversation I had with a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine who's actually still in the organization and working hard. This idea that, you know, people who do really, really well, the top one to 5% are the ones who get all the accolades, and the ones who get all the support and have the one to one calls with, you know, executives in the organization. And it's like, well, those people obviously don't need the help. So why not help the 95% who are doing it, because they really need to, and they need the support, and they need the help. It doesn't make sense to support the people who are already making money. But, you know, and it comes down to, I'd heard a story aboutyou know, and actually our upline had used this as sort of a marketing gimmick about how dedicated someone was we have a the company had a yearly retreat kind of thing, you know, that, that everyone went to, to reconnect and re engage and re energize and refocus, and they would launch new company products and things like that this event every year. And I remember he said, there's a woman who sold her car in order to afford tickets to go. And all I could think of was how she gonna drive her kids to school on Monday, when she comes back, you know, but but that was the epitome of dedication to the cause into the company into, you know, really believing in the product. And I thought, No, that's, that's insane. That's, it almost made me sad, because it was it was this, it felt to me and I don't know, person, and I don't know, their backstory, and I'm speculating. But it sounded to me, you know, it's an act of desperation. You know, because we were told, if you go to this event, this event is going to change your business, it is going to change your life. If like, this is the people go to in and their business just takes off. And there was a lot of guilt if you didn't go but that first year, I didn't go I couldn't afford it. The second year, I bought tickets, and ended up in the hospital about a week before we were due to fly out. I had a health issue, and was told that I couldn't fly. And I remember my, the team lead texted me one evening, and said, Where are you? There was a team meeting or something prior to this retreat? And I said, Oh, I'm in the emergency room. Okay, nevermind, like that. Was it? There was no Oh, my gosh, are you okay? What's happening? There's Okay, nevermind. And when I didn't go, that was, for me. The the turning point, that's where I was suddenly not involved not included in a lot of things because I didn't go to the retreat. I didn't, you know, and it just it boggles my mind to this day. You know, how you can go from being flavor of the month, because you're earning money, and you're buying into the marketing. And you know, you're doing everything, right, you have a little bit of an upset in your life. And suddenly, you're not dedicated. You don't want it bad enough. We're moving on. You know, and, you know, and I and I know that I'm not alone in those experiences, I know that there are a lot of people who have experienced something similar. I'd like to think that my experience is unusual. You know, I would like to think that my experience is not common. Unfortunately, I know that it's that's not the case at all.

Kaila Tova 36:24

This to me is one of the most troubling parts of the community that gets built in MLM it seems like there's a community there like this is going to be one big happy party, where lady bosses are helping lady bosses. But at the end of the day, if your income is dependent on the success of all the other lady bosses underneath and connected to you, then things have the potential to get ugly. And if you want to get paid, it's every woman for herself, or is it I talked to RC would mass a trained classical soprano and a non binary lesbian who works in tech who came up with a plan to use MLM to up in the corporate system and actually create a opportunities for marginalized communities. I've been an artist, Michael life. And so I did 10 years of opera school, and I had a freelance career, more or less in opera, and still do, although I'm doing a bit of that now, just because I started my own business this year, which is called cool creative, which is building. And there's a bunch of, there are a bunch of things that are associated with cool, but the big money maker, quote, unquote, of it is building websites.

RC Woodmass 37:37

And everything that kind of surrounds the work is a bit of web developer. And I'm self taught. So it's Pinterest, D because I went to school for 10 years as a singer. And then of course, I entered into this world of like, start up and, you know, misogyny, and opportunity and officiating folks and amazing possibilities and future and all the stuff with like, no formal training at all. Which is so funny, right? Because, I mean, even artists, like in our culture, it's like, well, you have to go to school, you have to, you know, get a degree. And this is, of course, one of the myths of, you know, capitalism, and else that's pushed on us. But I just, I guess I personally find it fascinating. I didn't go to school for it. But yeah, and I'm also you know, I care I'm, I'm an activist, I try to really examine my business practices, in terms of, am I allowed to swear on this podcast?

Kaila Tova 38:45

Yes, yes, you are,

RC Woodmass 38:46

okay, in terms of like, capitalism, but I still have to eat. And so trying to kind of come to terms with the fact that I can't live outside a capitalist system. But that I still want to be, I still want to thrive. And I still want to be able to give back to my community in a way that's not draining on me. And my resources. And I don't mean not, I won't self sacrifice for my community, but just there's so much to think about in terms of ethics. And sometimes it's just you're choosing the lesser of two evils and stuff like that,

Kaila Tova 39:26

you know, RC believes very strongly in community activism, they are also very aware of their own privilege and eager to use it to help others. However, at the time, when we recorded this interview, which was a couple of years ago, they felt unlikely to be able to generate the kind of capital needed to fund projects that could lead to large scale systemic change. And as a web designer, their work is fueled by the fuck capitalism, but I still have to eat ethos. And in a capitalist society where time is money, they sometimes feel acutely how difficult it is to navigate the balance between generating cash. I'm building community.

RC Woodmass 40:01

So I'm 31 right now. And last summer, I had this moment where I, I thought, wow, okay, let's say live to 100. Right, who knows how long we're going to live. But let's say that I have until I'm, so I just turned 30. And I was like, I have 70 years. And I was like, What would I do? If I knew that my deadline was 70 years from now that I could build some sort of movement or project or complete some sort of task or make some small change, that I that would take that the deadline isn't one month, two months from now, like it is for websites? Or you know, a year or two from now like opera? But 70 years? What can I accomplish in 70 years? And by accomplish? I don't mean, like, what can I put on my resume? What can I be remembered by? You know, what kind of like, wealth Could I generate? That's not what I mean? I mean, like, what kind of community could I build in 70 years, if I thought that if I if I saw my friendships and the people in my lives in my lives, Friday and slip or something, the people in my life as people that, you know, we're all in this together, we have a lifetime, we have 70 years, we have 50 years, we have 30 years, we have even five, you know, if if we're a bit older, like how we what could we dream of, and I think sometimes time is such a strange thing. time imagining LA. And I also have trouble imagining large amounts of money.

Kaila Tova 41:50

For women, identifying and queer people, time is one of the most valuable resources, being underpaid for the same roles as sis men means having to build up a side hustle to fill in the gap. And for those who pull a second shift at home with the kids, it's another resource being depleted. For those like Dana, who are forced to sit in an office and put in FaceTime instead of using that time productively, it is depressing to watch that time as it slips away. And for activists like RC who didn't necessarily have the financial means to make activism a primary job, it's the one out of reach resource that could change the world. After all, even if we had 70 years, how could you productively create structures that lift communities out of oppression when you're reallocating 40 plus hours a week to a job that isn't paying enough? So RC started exploring ways to circumvent the unequal structure of the capitalist system first by building what they called a collective arm of their web design business.

RC Woodmass 42:42

So what that is, is it's a community structure of basically crowdfunding on a monthly basis similar to Patreon, but I'm actually not moving it off Patreon. So I'm just doing it on my own website. And so contributing members No, not contributing, what's the language, I'm supporting members of the collective, pay a certain monthly fee, it could be, you know, $3, it could be $100 $1,000. And so that goes towards paying my fee, to then build free websites for supported members of the collective, which apply for a free website, through my site, and then join the collective that way, this is a way that I can give my resources to my community. And I think that receiving money from your community is also a community service, because it's pointing, it's like redirecting resources, literally directly into people's lives that that need a certain service, and my own, you know. And so it's it's providing, allowing me to be able to provide something to my community, without making myself into a community resource.

Kaila Tova 43:57

I think the idea of building new community based business structures may be the one key for creating actual change from marginalized communities under a capitalist system, because RC was building the structure themselves and not relying on anyone else's business model to make it happen, it seemed like a really good way to make sure that all business was being conducted ethically and aboveboard. The problem is when you run your own business, especially one that's based on community building, and giving, you also run the risk of burning out, so RC decided to try using an established business model that appeared to offer more freedom than the traditional routes to financial success without the risk of starting from scratch. And so

RC Woodmass 44:35

in that way, I'm hopefully not going to burn out as quick, right? Because right now, I'm just like, kind of I was building websites for free is just kind of offering stuff for free to people that I knew needed it and it just wasn't working out. For me, it was so exhausting. And so it's a bit different with so I'm part of, which is an, it's an essential oils company, they I also sell these incredible supplements, I'm a huge fan of their products, which really helps. Just I in my own kind of whatever, you know, I love using essential oils and stuff like that. But But it's interesting, because you're entering, I was entering a structure that was pre existing. So I could enter it with a critical I can I can, I can bring my criticism to the table. And but I don't necessarily have the power to change kind of the upper, you know, the way that the business is run the way that the marketing happens, I don't, I can't just say, well, that's not working, we're going to change that. Because it's not just my business in a certain sense. And so I'm trying to change the way that people imagine that MLM, and, specifically, can be used to reach direct resources to more marginalized people. And I'm really excited about that, because that's another way that I'm just kind of using capitalism to go fuck itself, you know,

Kaila Tova 46:14

in buying into MLM RC set for themselves big goals and big hurdles. So here's a little deja vu for you.

RC Woodmass 46:21

So okay, well, one things that I think is really important, and it was important in my kind of, like, I'm going to call it a journey, it's not been so much of a journey, but I've just done a lot of learning around the structures of MLM, and really trying to kind of think independently about capitalism, and come with my own kind of criticisms, instead of just allowing stigma, and, you know, stigma towards certain structures within capitalism, to limit my kind of like thinking, but how we can kind of turn it on it. And so for me, the biggest thing was like it, pyramid scheme, right? And so, MLM, yes, they are in a pyramid shape, you know, they're in the shape of a triangle. And, and, and that's what you talked about. And you know, what every single structure in capitalism is a triangular shape. It always, the money always flows up, the money never flows down in capitalism. And so all of the miniature structures within capitalism operate that way. That is what capitalism is. And so and that's also what causes what, what contributes even more to the system not working for many women, especially for marginalized folks. You know, it's like, yeah, we're pushed to the bottom of the pyramid, some of us more than others, right. And so that was the first thing that I realized that was a big aha moment for me is that Oh, like, no matter what way I'm participating in capitalism, I'm participating in some sort of pyramid structure, right. But the thing I want to do with my business, which I haven't started yet, is so Okay, so it's true that you get people under you, quote, unquote, and you you know, it's selling its buying, it's, you know, it's kind of your classic structure. So, what I'm going to do, is I'm going to have people join my team, they're called builders. So my builders and I are building a scholarship system. So the more money we make off of our bonuses off of our company, whatever, we're going to contribute it to an independent fund to actually fund those marginalized people, or those people who need it, or those people who can afford to get into it, but you know, already being fucked by capitalism anyway. We're going to pay for their entry into the program and support them as they as they grow. Basically,

Kaila Tova 49:23

I should take a moment here to mention that while MLM is often seen as a middle class white lady centered business MLM are especially exploitative and marginalized communities because they offer the promise of making fast cash If only you invest, some people feel like they have to put their life savings or their credit on the line to get started many MLM is required that you will also buy a certain amount of the product for yourself every single month just to prove your active for someone who can come up with the cash or whose partner or parents can bail them out. That's a lot less of a risk, even if it is still exploitative of those whose businesses aren't actually solvent. So RC is reimagining of allocating business. This fun sounds like it could have been a really great idea, at least in theory, if not in practice, it would, of course, require buy in from everyone on the team, which would mean overcoming the idea that your business is an entrepreneurial endeavor to line your own pockets. And it requires that you're generating enough revenue that you can line your own pockets first in the first place. For the record RC is no longer with that MLM company. Instead, they decided to invest their time and energy into turning their collective co creative into queer it a feminist anti capitalist web design company for and by queers and those who love them, and they donate 5% of every contract to the Montreal native women's shelter. Just for some disclosure, I was a customer of RCS back in 2017. And they did an awesome job of babysitting my old website. So okay, clearing MLM isn't going to happen anytime soon. But how do you make this a sustainable job, too many women are looking for community and growth and mentorship and support, and they're going to keep dropping out of the workforce for whatever reason. So if you're going to do it, can you at least do it safely. Both Dana and Sarah, who we have seen each have different feelings about their experiences with MLM, offer some sage advice? Here's Dana First,

Dana Schorr 51:09

if someone tells you, this is the secret, you know, most best way to work from home and become a millionaire. And it's so you know, easy way to make money in your pajamas, things like that. That's a big warning sign to me, because you shouldn't be working less than you would work in an office. But if you are putting in 40 hours a week, yeah, you probably actually will do really, really well. Because instead of signing up for a job, or you know, getting a job and day one you come in, and you start working your hours every day. But you get that income right away, basically, right, you don't have to earn that you don't have to work through it. And that's more of a typical job. But with network marketing, you don't have that guaranteed salary from day one, right, you have to build it up yourself. And so I, I warn people like look, you may or may not make any money for a few months, it just depends on how much time you're putting in. But on the flip side, when you put in more time, you also get more results. If that's a thing that's been shown over and over again, there's trends on it, I'm you know, I'm not afraid to say that I think it's very true. And so some people like having the safety of insecurity of they can go to work and whether or not they only spend one hour actually working and the rest of the time they're on Reddit or whatever. Or there, you know, lunch hour and this and cheese in it at the you know, getting water and all that stuff at the water cooler. Some people like the fact that they can do that and just have their salary no matter what. But I think what network marketing does, it attracts people who you know, want to put in the work, they're not afraid of working, but they also want to get results that sort of correlate with that same amount of time put in. And so that's kind of the cool thing is like, if you have a really busy week with your life, doctors appointments and children and husbands and whatever, there's, you know, pipe breaks in your house, and you just have so much going on, you can not work more that you know, you can work less that week. And it may or may not reflect in your paycheck a little bit. But you have the flexibility, you don't have to ask for time off, you don't have to do all these other things that maybe in a traditional office setting, you would. Mostly I think people should keep their day job until they really are making a high enough income just because I think that's the smart thing to do. But at some point, as they say, you might have to quit or retire your day job to sort of take the next step in your in your journey in here network marketing journey, let's call it really cheesy line. But But you shouldn't do that until that salary is the same or even more, right.

Kaila Tova 54:06

And here, Sarah,

Sarah Khan 54:08

I know that my personal experience with MLM hasn't been incredibly positive. Having said that, I've met wonderful people, and I still have, you know, very strong friendships with a few of them. I think what's important is, before you jump into any MLM situation, really do the research for yourself, you know, find out exactly how the business itself works. And try not to get caught up in the hype and the marketing and the promises because you know, they're not what are going to carry you through. MLM works for some people. It doesn't for others, but it's something that you genuinely want to try. You know, like I said, do that research first see what sort of monetary commitment it's going to require from you, on a monthly basis, what kind of time commitment it's going to require from you on a monthly basis. And don't listen to the person who's actually selling you the account, talk to other people who are already doing it, people who don't have a vested interest in you becoming part of that company. You know, read read experiences, read blogs, find out as much as you can about, you know, how do these people make money? Is it really as easy? As they say, you know, am I going to have to end annoying emails to friends and family members and potentially alienate them? If they don't, you know, sign up and support me really to know about the company first, you might be surprised it might be, you know, the thing for you, and it might absolutely work and more power to if it does. But if if it's not for you, at least you have found out before you've made several thousands of dollars worth of investment. Because I aside from maybe you know, one or 2% of people, I honestly don't think there are people that are involved in the company that I was involved in, who are actually making a profit. I do wonder about that. Because if I look back now, I don't think I made any money. I think I broke even at the end of it all. You know, this is after three years of involvement in it. So yeah, do the research, do the research, independent research and be completely honest with yourself about whether this is something that you are comfortable doing because at the end of the day, it's a sales job. And if you're not comfortable selling, it might not be the thing for you.

Kaila Tova 56:19

So let me repeat it is a sales job as much as consultants will try to sell you on the lifestyle aspects or the possibility of freedom, that freedom that lifestyle, it's only accessible to the few at the top justice there are overcompensated CEOs in the pyramid shaped structure of corporate America. So are there under compensated individual sales people crowding the bottom of the MLM ladder? Or, you know, but because MLM promises that you'll get what men feel all the time whether or not it says that explicitly, a lot of women are willing to take the risk, even if it means taking on the stigma of being that annoying lady in your Facebook mentions and becoming a product of a product for Brenda, the hardest thing about choosing to keep selling,

Brenda Swann 57:01

not having to be apologetic, like that, I think has been the hardest thing for me with MLM I used to start my spiel when I didn't want to do this because I know its sales. Instead of like, actually, I didn't want to do this, I chose to do this, I believe in this. And I'm doing it because one it helps me make money. And to it's something that I can speak to, you know, when I used to work when I was 16 and was selling men's jeans at Sears like, you know, I What? I didn't know what the hell, I wasn't a man, you hope I was selling jeans to men. And I would tell them like, Oh look, the five of one Dean's have listed on the seat and the five or five jeans are a zipper. And you know, so like you have knowledge and you can speak to it. And then you sell it and like nothing wrong with that. Yet somehow you carry the shame around with you, you know that it's like that you can't Oh MLMs are awful. And you're an awful human being and you're educated or or something, whatever, whatever, find something negative about why you sell it, and then everybody hates you on Facebook because you're always posting about it. And you know, it's just like, dude, I'm just trying to make money to make a car payment. I'm trying to make a pony track because I do live in a Podunk town where I do have a Western, Western traditional job, but guess what, I am in a place where the minimum wage is $7. So when I'm over here making $15 an hour and that's a lot of money for this job in this place. But it's not actually a lot of money to pay our mortgage or to just have bare necessities. Like what the hell am I supposed to do? You know? What? Like, what what and you know, I don't need you to help help me feel shame, a shame for selling my MLM my freakin choking choking at you my sunscreen that safe? Like, if you don't want to buy it, don't buy it. But just don't send me your nasty messages like so what if it's MLM like, what do you feel differently? If I selling this? If it said like banana boat and that was out at Walmart or Target or you know, somewhere near then my house selling you a safe sunscreen or whatever? like is that make it different? How does that make a difference? Exactly. You know, either way, I'm still making, I'm still making a fraction of what the company's making, whether I'm doing it on the internet at my house, or if I'm doing it at a boutique selling their brand puts us in a really, really strange situation.

Kaila Tova 59:29

And well that strange situation creates a lot of conflict for women for my friend Hadass who after years of searching for a career that felt fulfilling. After years of being underpaid or not making a profit MLM still feels like the only answer.

Hadass Eviatar 59:45

I actually think that as far as businesses go, this is the best model I've seen so far. You look at people who start a brick and mortar store, they are in debt up to their eyebrows. And they're lucky if they break even and most of them go on. And I don't want to do that. And I don't want to work the kind of crazy hours that are required, my health won't allow it to have I used to be a high school teacher and I just couldn't hack the hours that were required as a new teacher. My health just didn't allow it. So this is this is a way that I think this is this is the this is the future. This is the gig economy. And you can scream and yell and and rant and rave about it. Kaila and I really, but this is the future in terms of the economy, this is what people are going to be doing. And personally, I really really enjoy being my own boss. I really really enjoy being in charge of myown time.

Kaila Tova 1:00:46

It's easy to be smug about MLM if you've left one are never been persuaded to join one. But what Hadass just said is why I don't think it's productive to simply rehash all of the reasons why one might consider this business model of exploitative order to try to convince current members that they're unlikely to strike it rich. While investigative reporting into corrupt business practices is important. I don't think it's likely to change an MLM consultants mind for people like Dana and haddas for whom their careers offered little hope of growth or advancement for people like RC and Jen, for whom owning a small business meant taking a big risk and hoping to avoid burnout for people like Sarah and Brenda who needed a flexible way to supplement their income and pay the bills MLM appeared to be the only answer. MLM gets a bad rap and deservedly so in my opinion. However, I get it now, in a world that's full of structural barriers to personal economic empowerment and social capital MLM appears as a ladder to help you personally get over the walls. And in the corporate world where friendships are forged over shared misery around bureaucracy and office politics MLM offers a more positive view of community building at work. And for women who know that their jobs are not and may never be enough MLM has enough success stories to fill their heads with hope and possibility. It's not just multi level marketing that I'm concerned about though. It's an extreme and highly visible example. But as I mentioned in the first MLM episode, it's the canary in the coal mine and that mine is filled with women who are getting certifications from the Institute for integrative nutrition, the National Academy of Sports Medicine and the yoga Alliance. They're also putting money, reputation and identity on the line to chase after a dream of raising financial and social capital on their own terms. And they're doing it by making money primarily out of the pockets of other women using their bodies and their lifestyles as both the marketing and the product. Look, I get it. I've been there. Personally, I still wonder if my life would have been better if I hadn't let my personal trainer certification laps or if I had left my marketing job in San Francisco to become a trainer at Equinox like I plan later I gave my all to health coaching, including my entire savings account on the belief that success was just a few more dollars or a few more hours hustling away. I was as bought in on my coaching practice as the dossiers on her network marketing company. The only difference was who was making money off of me and the way that they did it the social media companies I paid for posting tools, the podcast, hosting websites, Facebook ads department and the coaching companies that certified me No, it's not a pyramid, but it's just as person a business model. In the end, only a few people actually profit and a lot of us who have given our all to the belief that the only way to break through the glass ceiling is to just go outside and up with nothing to show for our efforts. So in our next episode, we're going to inspect that glass ceiling a little more closely to understand why the answer to breaking through isn't necessarily to leave it behind entirely, nor is it to lean into it harder.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Kaila PrinsJuly 7, 2021