Eight: The Pyramid-Shaped Elephant in the Room

When we talk about wellness entrepreneurship, it’s hard to ignore the pyramid-shaped elephant in the room: multilevel marketing. MLM or network marketing gets plenty of time in the media, but instead of just talking about why the actual system is good or bad, we’re going to ask: why do women join them in the first place?

I approached these interviews from a place of curiosity instead of condemnation, and they revealed some pretty interesting stories. I encourage you to listen to these interviews with curiosity too — you may be surprised at what you learn.

This is part one of a two-part episode.

Transcript

Sarah Vance 0:00

We still don't get paid what I believe we're worth

Tiana Dodson 0:03

I had secretly been wanting to try health coaching

Carrie Ingoglia 0:06

women have been dropping out.

Andi Zeisler 0:08

Your body is the next frontier of liberation.

Stefani Ruper 0:12

You have to monetize.

Sarah Banet-Weiser 0:13

We buy into this idea that anyone can do this

Victoria Ferriz 0:16

your body becomes proof

Kelly Diels 0:17

whether or not we're trying to sell a service or product. All women are brands

Brenda Swann 0:21

now I'm a health coach.

Kaila Tova 0:25

My name is Kaila Tova. And this is your body your brand. episode eight, the pyramid shaped elephant in the room. This episode is part one of a two part episode.

Brenda Swann 0:52

Well, it was the oils. The oil was my main one. And actually, I mean, technically, I'm still signed up to do that. And I ice the oils are my main one. And then there's another skin one. And then, you know, I'm still signed up for another one that you know, it's interesting, interesting, because I actually like to the third one that I'm involved with, and then at this present time, like I still have to keep the oils and the other one that I'm doing the skin one because I need to make some money.

Kaila Tova 1:23

When we last heard from Brenda Swan, she was getting her life and her relationship back together after a failed stint as a health coach. We're picking up her story just after she and her husband got back together and moved across the country.

Brenda Swann 1:36

So yes, I had to get involved with these MLM because there was like, This is the only way I'm going to make some extra money until we figure out what and how and who and and how do I make passive income in a way that I don't have to stress it or really try super duper hard so that I can still contribute to our family to our household, you know, pay my bills, pay those all those loans from not only my university, but also the all these coaching programs and things that I did certifications and whatever. Yeah, you know, I still gotta make funny, I spoke it up, pay that off and live a normal life, which isn't even that I don't know, extravagant. You know if that makes any sense.

Kaila Tova 2:19

Yeah, it does a lot. It's one of those things that I've been considering. It's like, Okay, how do you make extra money without going crazy?

Brenda Swann 2:27

And what you don't, right. Not not in the not in the way that our system is set up? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's just the bottom line. So you just have to figure out how to live within it. And I thought I had it figured out for a little while there, butI don't think I did.

Kaila Tova 2:44

Today, we're addressing the pyramid shaped elephant in the room. MLM. MLM or multi level marketing is having a day in the media, everyone is interested in it, either because they're fierce advocates with something to sell you or because they find some something in it to ridicule or shun people are talking about MLM because it's an obvious target, either. It's that potentially exploitative companies are manufacturing legions of zombies, who all smell suspiciously of essential oils and want to talk to you about mascara and releasing them into your Facebook and Instagram feeds. Or it's that potentially liberating companies are creating spaces for enterprising women who have been historically held back from entering into entrepreneurial roles. They're helping women build businesses that empower the seller individually while providing a supportive cheerleading team in the form of an upline and a downline turning the selling structure into a collaborative girl powered boss babe love fest. It's either or, but I'm actually not here to talk about why MLM is right or wrong, good or bad. I'm actually more interested in MLM as a case study, multi colored legging wearing canary in the coal mine when it comes to understanding why women are so excited about the prospect of leaving the traditional workforce for non traditional health and wellness roles. We're looking at MLM from this perspective, instead of the easier trope of good job bad job, because I'm actually really tired of the discourse placing the onus on women, it's their fault for buying into these companies in the first place. So if they get duped, it's their own problem, right? So as Merv Emery, and I hope I'm pronouncing that right points out in a recent article in the Boston review, and the article was about reproductive health. But I think the statement expands outward, what starts out as a critique of capitalism becomes a critique of women's choices. And that counts double for mlm. There is a reason why women choose to become multi level marketers that goes beyond greed, naivete, or even lack of skill and navigating the corporate system. And to understand that reason, we have to shift our focus back to a critique of capitalism. So we can stop blaming capitalism's failings on the women that it failed, we're going to talk with both women who are currently selling MLM and those who have gotten burned by it. And so full disclosure before we get started in the past, I have written and spoken out against MLM both because I've been personally hurt by the disingenuous marketing of the products. And because I recognize how exploitative these companies can be. I've also in moments of financial panic reached out to friends who do sell MLM products and inquired about how to get in. I've never been an active seller for an MLM company, but I can understand why people cave in and try it out. Okay, disclaimers out of the way. My intention in this episode is not to convince you to feel one way or another about them, despite the fact that I will not be an advocate for this business model. But to help you understand why they're compelling in the first place, which is why I chose to include interviews with people who are working as multi level marketers and are enthusiastic about their career choices. Although Please note, I will challenge some of those ideas that are shared by these active network marketers, especially if they're vague or intended to obfuscate the truth. So before we dive in, just in case you haven't listened to the podcasts or read the blogs about it, let's get to know what the multi level marketing business model actually is. We'll first hear from my friend Dana shore, who works for an essential oil company.

Dana Schorr 6:08

My name is Dana, I am a network marketer. I am a distributor for in essential oils company. And my day job is more of internet education for healthy lifestyle. And actually, a lot of that entails selling to other network marketers, which is kind of an interesting place to be, I kind of see both sides of that coin. But my third district distributor job basically entails using the products, sharing them with people. And then if they're interested getting them signed up, so that they also purchase the products and I don't have to deal with selling one bottle at a time to them or stocking up and having some inventory in my own house, they can just order whatever they want to their own homes. And I don't have to be involved in any of that. So that's always sort of the end goal there.

Kaila Tova 7:04

multi level marketing companies, also known as network marketing companies are built through the use of a non salaried workforce who essentially resell the product offered by the company and make commissions based on their sales. But there's more than one product in this business model, you're not just selling Tupperware makeup, essential oils, or diet supplements, you're also selling the job of being a network marketer, in theory, and in practice, you make more money when you recruit new people to sell the products underneath you than you do just selling the products yourself.

Dana Schorr 7:35

And I tell people this when I meet with them, or do little classes, or whatever, and I always go through the oils and the products first because that's my focus. But then I say, hey, look, I just want everyone to know there is a possibility for you to either get a little money back, maybe you get your products free every month, or maybe you make a nice little paycheck, that possibility is there, but it's all about like I could sign up every person I see just directly under me and I'd make like a decent amount of money and make 8% of whatever they buy, but I'll never actually make a good quality income that way the way for me to succeed is to have structures under myself and if you want to call them trees or down lines or branches or you want to refer to the pyramid, whatever, I don't care but I basically need the people under me to succeed in order to for my self to succeed because that's how our payment structure and our what we call our comp plan or compensation plan is laid out. So for me, you know I don't want to have a big stock of products and then just try to sell and have just singular customers underneath me I don't want to be a retail store. I want to just get other people doing well and that's how I basically up rank it's called and get higher percentages and get to reach further down and all this stuff.

Kaila Tova 9:00

MLM are often compared to pyramid schemes because the business model is pyramid shaped one salesperson the upline takes on sales people underneath them the downline and makes commissions off of their downline sales network marketers will tell you that their companies are letter shaped or horizontal in order to reduce the stigma of the pyramid shape pyramid schemes are illegal but either way MLM do involve one salesperson referring another one into the company and earning a percentage of money from the sales made by the person below them they're definitely pyramid shaped whether or not you are the FTC agrees that their scam picture one person taking on two people underneath them and then those two people taking on two people underneath them etc. The resulting picture if you were to draw it out still looks like a pyramid they're just not classified as a pyramid scheme which is a very specific type of illegal business model. You know,

Jen Kruidbos 9:57

some people have their cynical comments like oh is this a pyramid scheme is the sea legal and things like that and when you when I reflect back when I was working at this nine to five Corporation, like that's far more of a like quote unquote, pyramid structure, because you have your president at the top and then you have your like marketing directors below them, then you have your like communication coordinator below them, and the communication coordinator will never have more leadership influence and make more money than the president that will never happen. But in this model, and MLM and direct marketing, anyone, like any person at the bottom, can grow huge business and thrive. And nothing holds them back. There's just so much freedom built into

Kaila Tova 10:42

it. You just heard Jen crude boss, a yoga instructor and essential oils consultant share some of the language that network marketers use to help explain how MLM or not pyramid schemes just to offer some counterpoint before we go any further well, corporate structures do have top down org charts that may result assemble a pyramid when drawn, they're not pyramid shaped in the same way each employee does not earn their own revenue stream in a corporate model, and the boss doesn't make a commission off of the revenue earned directly by the people below them. When an employee is hired into a company. They work directly for the company and are paid by the company with a salary even if they report to a manager above them. So the manager has no incentive to bring more people into the company to make money off of them. They have incentive to bring people into the company to fill in an open role in the network marketing model. However, there's a direct financial incentive for a person to recruit somebody directly underneath them and grow their downline even in corporate sales were individual contributors do earn a commission the model still does not consider their manager or their managers manager and upline because of the way that MLM are structured. While network marketers do make a percentage of the retail sales of whatever product their company promotes. From essential oils to leggings, two shakes, cleanses and supplements the real money is in recruiting a downline, this fact that you're not really selling products, but actually selling the company is what earns MLM it's bad rap because in MLM it's not just always be selling. It's also always be recruiting. As Dana tells us,

Dana Schorr 12:13

pretty much everyone's like biggest complaint, right? It's like, Oh, this girl I talked to you like three times in high school, were just Facebook friends messaged me out of the blue, and like I know what's coming next.

Kaila Tova 12:23

This puts a lot of pressure on network marketers to not only promote the products, but to promote the lifestyle of selling those products just subsumed their company's products, services and marketing language into the fabric of their own lives, which is why they are so often visible as objects for scoring online. If you do MLM everybody knows about it. But this is also what makes MLM such a great case study for the concept of your body, your brand, because at least in the case of health and wellness, you are forced to turn the management of your body and your health via these products into your lifestyle as visibly as possible online. So why do women turn to MLM? Why do they feel like they have to invest in this system? Why did they believe that this is the alternative to capitalism, that will finally carve out a space in this system for women to succeed?

Jen Kruidbos 13:18

when I really started to get the business model that I was like, Wait a second, this is the number one way that women who stay at home can become millionaires. And this is a way that, you know, a massage therapist could you know, like, do really well for themselves in a one one way. And it's not a model where just because I enrolled and I enrolled people below me like I'll always do better than them like they can skyrocket above me, which is just that doesn't happen in the corporate world.

Kaila Tova 13:48

Well, many of the women we talked to today won't be as successful as Jen, who was on year two of building her business and finally covering her rent. When we first recorded this interview, the pervading reason behind going into MLM is the promise of capital and the allure of being able to represent a brand that appears to make you both wealthy and healthy.

Sarah Khan 14:08

Well, I am a teacher, I teach in college, I'm wife and mother. And just a general information junkie, someone who likes to try new things, someone who likes to experience new experiences.

Kaila Tova 14:23

Thats Sarah Khan, who for a time sold weight loss supplements through a multi level marketing company.

Sarah Khan 14:28

For me, it was always, you know, taking on extra shifts at work, or teaching extra classes, like it was always a more traditional way of making extra money. And at the time that this had come up, I was I was teaching a full day in my day job. And then I was teaching night classes three, four nights a week as well. So I was very overworked. So when the opportunity came up, you know that you can make money for just working out. For me, it was more, well, hey, you know, if I can make money and work out, that'll actually the money factor will motivate me to work out more. Right? So for me, I looked at it that way. Like if I'm making money off of this, I'm definitely going to get healthy, I'm definitely gonna lose weight. And the initial investment was pretty hefty. I have a very understanding husband, who is incredibly supportive. And he's never said no, so he was wonderful about it. He said, you know, whatever makes you happy, whatever you want to do. And there was some guilt, but then there was also this promise of you'll make money as well. So when I first signed my first customer, I was over the moon, because I thought this is great. But then you start to feel okay, well, now I have to walk the walk. You know, I have to start losing weight if I'm if I'm going to keep making money. And I'm not sure where the line got blurred.

Kaila Tova 15:50

MLM, especially health based MLM often prey on our insecurities about our bodies, just as other health offerings, from coaching to fitness training to, as we discussed in Episode One, we live in a culture that basically produces and replicates this insecurity. And in Episode Four, we learned how and why we invest in the production of insecurity. So for a lot of women, the initial reason they purchase an MLM product is to fix a health problem. And then once they've made the investment in an identity, they learned they can sell it to others for a profit.

Sarah Khan 16:22

I've always had body image issues, always, I've always been a little bit on the heavier side. For a number of reasons, you know, I have I have a thyroid issue. And that's been sort of prevalent throughout my life, in terms of, you know, just I was never very athletic, I was never really somebody that you know, got picked for the sports teams, that kind of thing, and a lot of just, you know, cultural stuff to really fed into my personal issues with body image and how I viewed myself. The MLM came along, there was a mutual friend of, well, a friend of a friend who had posted something on Facebook, and I had seen it. And you know, it's along the lines of, would you like to make money and get healthy at the same time? And I thought, Oh, my gosh, absolutely. And, you know, despite the fact that I had been trying for years, you know, to become a runner to go to the gym, I tried pretty much everything, including herbal supplements, and all those, you know, fad diets, and pretty much anything that's been out there to help you lose weight and get healthy, quote, unquote, I've tried it. And so when this came up, I thought, you know what, making money, that's a huge motivator, I'll stick with it a little bit. And so I met with this lady, she was wonderful, we got involved, there was no thinking back on it, there was a lot of the high pressure sales tactics that I hadn't picked up on, because it was very new to me. And you know, I will openly say that I was quite naive in the beginning. And you know, the whole wall, there's only two spots left in my on my team, and you know, you really need to, to make this decision now. And there was really kind of like, okay, I felt that pressure, like I have to make a decision right now. And I decided to do it. And that's really how I got into it. Because the promise was there. You know, it's really easy, there's no there's no pressure, you do it your own way you share your story. You don't have to be an expert, but you can totally make money doing this and lose weight at the same time.

Kaila Tova 18:12

The reason you don't have to be an expert to make money is that the MLM business model like health coaching and social media influence in general is built on the principle of know like, and trust Tupperware, arguably one of the most well known MLM companies figured this one out, when an enterprising business woman named brownie wise began selling Tupperware at her direct sales parties. Tupperware took notice and hired her to help transform the company. To this day, network marketers are encouraged to host parties, classes and other events to introduce themselves and the product as a package deal to show their friends who know like and trust them how these products are used in their everyday lives. Here's Jen again,

Jen Kruidbos 18:51

on my Instagram account, I'll have every sort of 10th posts or sometimes even less, like I remember, at one point, at the height of my enthusiasm, someone's like, are you still doing? Like, yeah, so that's like, okay, maybe I'm not working? well enough. No one knows I'm doing it. So um, so yeah, so I sprinkle posts here and there. I do events, but I mean, it's really the classic recipe, which is like doing classes, and it comes down to like, connecting with people. And I just, I genuinely just use the oils in my life. I'm definitely aware to like, I know that if I'm putting myself with peppermint on a hot day out with my friends, they'll be like, Oh, my God, what is that, that smell so good. So I really prefer the model of like, invite them, like lead by example, and invite people who are interested to be like, what is that? Oh, my God, I used oils, but they've never smelled like this. Tell me more. I'm just because I didn't want to be that like, even though in my heart, I'm a crazy oil lady like I didn't want

Kaila Tova 19:56

to think. However, as we have seen, the internet has expanded women's ability to reach one another and sell both the products and the lifestyle. In theory, if you've got marketing savvy, or a team of people teaching you how to have marketing savvy, you could reach influence and recruit an exponentially larger audience than can fit in your living room. By sharing their authentic lives with their friends and family network marketers are essentially turning their feeds into an endless direct selling party,

Dana Schorr 20:25

I have conflicted feelings honestly about how to post on facebook, facebook is a huge deal for us as network marketers, it is very important, there's people making millions of millions of dollars off of Facebook. If I could figure out one day how to do that.

Kaila Tova 20:44

One of the reasons that Dana is able to use Facebook, despite her conflicting feelings is because of her approach to the marketing, she is as authentic as she can be in her posts, because she's invested her belief in the product and in the network marketing lifestyle, so much that they are an awesome authentic part of her life.

Dana Schorr 21:01

You should, above all else, love the product and believe in it, because people will realize whether or not you do. And so that's a big thing for me is, I mean, I've had a few people who come up to me and said, I want to do this as a business, which to me is like angels are singing from the heavens. And, you know, there's like trumpets and everything. And like, that's awesome. It's pretty rare. Nowadays, but it is awesome to hear that. And I of course love that. But in general, everyone I talked to, they don't want to sign up because they want to have a network marketing business, they sign up because they love you know, this product or that product, or they want to become healthier, they want to add this to their life or you know, whatever it may be. And so for me, we call it being a product of the product. So you know, use the stuff, show people that you're using this stuff, don't be afraid to, you know, open up a bottle of essential oils in front of people and sniff on it. If it calms you down, or whatever you're using it for. Don't be shy about it. And, you know, people can tell if you actually don't really believe in it, or you're just trying to get people signed up. Or maybe you don't even really use them. So if people ask you questions, you're like, Oh, I don't really know or that product, you know, people will realize whether or not you're actually this is actually something that's part of your life. And so if the product is not something you think you're going to use, literally every day, don't sign up for that company. So it may be a great skincare line. But if you have your own skincare that you really like that does well for you, or you know, whatever. Like, if you're not going to use the product, what's the point and try to sell it to other people,

Kaila Tova 22:41

everyone uses the internet differently. Some people really do approach their MLM sales as authentic, they don't have a gimmick or a marketing plan. They like Dana as products of the product just show you how they use the product in their everyday lives. Others, especially those who have a background in marketing, really lean into system advertising their social shares for optimal conversion. Here's Sarah again on how her upline and her team encouraged her to manage her brand.

Sarah Khan 23:07

We had our sort of Team Leader our upline was very marketing savvy, somebody who, you know, gave us a lot of very prescriptive things to do. So you know, how many times a day you should be posting on your social media, the types of things you should be posting, the optimal times of day that you should be posting, you know, using emojis and making sure there's a picture and making sure that your pictures look a certain way and the kind of words you should be using and how many, you know how many capitals you should be using in your posts. And so it was it was a very prescriptive way of doing it. And you know, in the beginning, it was very helpful. And it was like, great, and I did have to adjust my personal style. And I do remember one conversation that I had had with one of the up lines who had posted something personal on my Facebook page, and I got a message almost instantly saying you shouldn't post that because that's 200. And it wasn't it was just something about my personal life, something that you know, had a personal opinion. No, no, you've got to have everything's got to be positive and upbeat. And you know, looking forward, and I went, Wow, okay, so I have to censor who I am now, because I'm building this brand. Okay, I understand that. And it starts to become harder and harder, because you do start censoring everything you say the number of posts that I had posted and then deleted, because I wasn't sure if it fit the brand, if you fit the mold. You know, it starts to weigh on you and, and you know, eventually it got to the point where you're encouraged to reach out to people, you know, to hover on different pages and boards and, you know, jump on people who might you think might be interested in hearing what you have to say, and, and, you know, really those aggressive sales tactics that me personally, I'm speaking for myself here,

Kaila Tova 24:55

I'm not comfortable with that. Well, people who take a very systematized marketing approach to their multi level marketing sales tend to do better than people who don't for Dana, she approaches it as just a normal part of her social media use.

Dana Schorr 25:08

I I definitely post about the products when I am physically use them. So I try not to just set up a, you know, a picture shot with some products or casually have one in the background or like, and then not actually do it. So if I'm actually using an oil, you know, on a sore muscle or something, I will then maybe post about it because I'm literally doing it, why not share about that. And if people are kind of interested or they also have this issue, or they want more information than they are more than welcome to comment or a message me. So I get a lot of people messaging me with versus me messaging them,

Kaila Tova 25:46

Dana's approaches low pressure. And it's possible that because the product essential oils is currently very trendy in the wellness world, it's a lot easier to simply show herself using it and just generate interest in sales just from the visual as opposed to perhaps a weight loss supplement that might require a little bit more convincing. But at the end of the day, as we've learned in previous episodes, the fact that she or anyone is using her authenticity, to model a product to turn her lifestyle into a sales tool means that performative authenticity is still only authentic, up to a point. Sarah experienced that shift from authenticity to performance of authenticity while she was selling MLM

Sarah Khan 26:25

At first, I really did like the the product. No, I didn't love it, you know, we took the supplement every day. And I remember, you know, there was a new flavor came out and I was everyone was so excited about it, they were really hyping it up. And people ordered it. And they tried it. And I ordered it and I tried it. And I thought this is actually really disgusting. But you don't feel like you can say that, you know, you have to post about how wonderful it is and how fantastic it is how it's changed your life. And there's there's a lot of pressure to conform, you know, which is is almost counterintuitive, because you know, they're telling you to be authentic. They're telling you to be yourself, because honestly centricity sells your brand. It allows you to connect with people. But at the same time, if your authenticity in any way counters what the message is, you can be authentic.

Kaila Tova 27:16

In the world of online marketing, this is kind of a virtue and not a criticism. The idea, again, is to become a product of the product, and to tailor your opinions, at least the way in which you perform them for others, to at least continue elevating the product, even if it's not your favorite thing in the world. As a salesperson, you're not supposed to be skeptical of your own product. My friend Hadass Eviatar who is a current network marketer for a diet supplement is very much a proud product of her product. And she addressed my concern about authenticity by affirming the inauthenticity of selling on social media, even as she was denying it,

Hadass Eviatar 27:53

I don't think that my posts are in authentic because I would never say that I can't live without these products, I think my quality of life wouldn't be as good. But I could certainly live without them. I live without them for most of my life. I'm just doing better with them. But I mean, I would never claim that I can't live without them. I would never claim I'm don't feel like it's a performance. Because any Instagram feed any Facebook feed, in that sense, is a performance. You okay, I don't take pictures. When I go to the bathroom, I go, I take nice pictures, because that's what I enjoy seeing on other people's sheets. You know, like I said, I was on holiday for two weeks, and I took pictures of the, of the, of the landscape and the food and of the people and this and that. And I had a wonderful time. And I had so many people saying, and I really thank you for sharing those pictures, I really enjoyed a vicarious like a vacation with you. And that was really awesome. And that was all there was to it. But the point is, is that to sometimes I put out posts, which are, which are specifically, this is what I'm doing. And most of the time, it's just this is my life, and I enjoy my life. And here's the thing is that everybody is always selling themselves Kaila. And you know that if you want people to, if you want people to come to your burlesque show, you have to get them to come and they're not going to come necessarily just because they love burlesque and they would walk into any random burlesque show they come because they want to see you. And that is true in anything if you like I go to one dentist and not another because I like this particular dentist and he didn't have to put anything out on Facebook to make me want to go to him. He just happens to be I went to him on a recommendation and I liked him and I stayed.

Kaila Tova 29:41

Hadass and I met when we were both influencers in the online paleo community. We both appeared on an episode of low carb conversations with Jimmy Moore and friends kudos now sells an MLM diet product with which I have had a poor personal experience. And she and I have had contentious conversations about it in the past. I'll admit that our conversation for this podcast was frustrating. I love her das and she has been one of my biggest cheerleaders over the past few years, even though we've never met in person. But I also didn't want to have this conversation without challenging her when I felt that she was dodging a question or falling back to MLM scripts. However, I do want to also acknowledge that she did make a great point about the ways in which authenticity has been eroded on social media. And if other people are exploiting it for profit, why shouldn't she? So here's my issue to that just I want to push back a little bit because you're absolutely right 100% like that I have such an issue with the fact that we all have to sell ourselves in order to make our lives work. But unfortunately we do. And social media is the best way to do that these days. So I completely completely agree with you. But the difference is, so I sell a burlesque show, I'm selling entertainment, that isn't prescriptive in terms of how to live your life. a dentist, yes may have some prescription for you, but they're providing a necessary service that's going to keep your teeth working. The the problem that I have with a lot of these network marketing companies is they're selling their selling health in a way that is not necessarily healthy, and also can encourage disordered eating. And that is my problem with it. It's not It's not that you're selling a product or that you're selling anything, it's that you're selling a product that is targeted for weight loss or muscle gain or any kind of transformation. And that mindset plays into diet culture, whether or not you personally believe in it, because the thing is that product in that company absolutely does. And that is a problem. Like it's a huge problem. And the fact that you can perform weight loss or you know, health transformation based on like restrictive eating is concerning to me. And that's why I rant and rail against MLM because it It encourages their their people who sell it to beliefs so strongly in it, that they can't hear any argument against it, because it's an argument against your ability to make money. You know, and, and that is my concern. That's why I rant and rave, not that you're selling something. But that, you know, I mean, for God's sake, the company that you work for, was the start of the huge eating disorder relapse for me, and it was, you know, it was supposed to just be a healthy kickstart for getting my, you know, energy and life back together. You know,

Hadass Eviatar 32:30

it's unfortunate, you didn't have good coaching on that, because I think that what they did to you was nothing less than child abuse. And I'm really sorry that this product was part of that particular situation, but it wasn't the product was what they did well,

Kaila Tova 32:43

but the way that the product is sold is you're supposed to do a two day cleanse where you don't eat anything. And yeah, the the cleanse, there's two cleanse days. And then there was two weeks of like smoothies.

Hadass Eviatar 32:56

Yeah, but the cleanse. First of all, it's not to mix the smoothies. And second, the cleanse days are not days that you don't eat anything on

Kaila Tova 33:03

six almonds or half an apple.

Unknown Speaker 33:06

Well, I'm telling you, they did not do it properly. And it's really unfortunate, because I have to tell you that them allowing you this sort of that was already the wrong thing. How old? Were you again?

Kaila Tova 33:17

I was 20? No 1920, something like that.

Hadass Eviatar 33:22

Okay, so you were old enough to

Kaila Tova 33:24

me to do the research on the website and understand what that was prescribed in a way with these products, like what the directions on the products was was?

Hadass Eviatar 33:33

Yeah, it's really unfortunate that that happened. Because if I were coaching somebody, that would certainly not be the way it would go. But yeah, and I do try to work with people who are looking my my aim is to work with people who are interested in health, not in, oh, I have to be skinny, those people scare me in terms of working with them, because Yeah, because having interacted with you all these all these years, Kaila that definitely has had effect on the way I do this. And I thank you for that. And I don't do the before and after pictures, because that's not what I'm after I'm my client, my ideal customer is a person who wants more energy wants to feel better, not somebody who wants to be skinny, somebody wants to be skinny and needs to talk to somebody else, not me.

Kaila Tova 34:26

Right. But I mean, the very first thing I'm looking at the website, the very first block of their, you know, things that they're they're both so first of all, there's a giant header picture, and there's a transformation photo, the second panel is weight loss solutions. And then you know, you get energy and performance way below the fold. But like, that's the first thing, that's what they lead with, is what most people want, right? But it's good. But here's, here's the problem.

Hadass Eviatar 34:56

Here's the thing. I heard of podcast A while back with somebody she was she was doing this coaching about two, for single women, it was about how to find your ideal man. And she didn't really want to do that. She she had this, this, this community and so on. And she was running workshops and shoes. And she didn't really want to do the how to find your ideal man thing, how to attract your ideal man, she was like, that's kind of gross. But then she realized that people were coming in, ostensibly to look for their ideal man, and what she was doing as she was working with them on mindset, and on self esteem, and on to all the life coaching stuff that we work with, to get people to stop hating themselves, and to stop talking shit to themselves all the time. And the thing is, is that people are not going to come in and listen to the good stuff, until they've walked in your door. And they walk in your door with what they think they want. And you know that that's not what they need. But the point is that if you set go to them, and you say you need to work on your mindset and stop hating yourself, and then you know, your life will be so much better. They're not going to listen. So people might come in because of the weight loss. And because of the beautiful pictures by the were all true. I've seen those people. And they might come in because of that. And then they'll get to listen to somebody like my friend Aaron talking about emotional eating and talking about to mindset and talking about to self esteem and about controlling your thoughts and all of that stuff.

You don't need a product for that. But it certainly isn't

Kaila Tova 36:49

going to help you with that though. That's

Hadass Eviatar 36:51

this Yes, it will. Because if people are because what also happens is that people are malnourished, and their brains don't work so great. One of the one of the ways in which I forget the cleanse days, I'm talking about if people even just take a shake a day, what I found for myself and said I was incredibly malnourished now I actually was malnourished because of my digestive issues. But even people who don't have digestive issues, although a lot of people do. And they do find that their thinking is clearer, because they are actually better nourished because they've been eating standard American crap diet. So just improving their nourishment. And even if they don't buy the whole damn thing, I don't care, buy one canister of shake and take one shake a day, and you'll find that you feel better, and you can sink better. And then you can then maybe you can listen and think about things like what kind of self talk Am I having? And what kind of how am I putting myself down? And how can I be nicer to myself, and not have such ridiculous expectations of myself and not punish myself and not use food as a reward, and not use food to fill that void in my life. All of these things you can't do, you can'tsay.

Kaila Tova 38:05

I know that for Hadass who is in it who has invested, it's very easy for her to see this product as being the game changer that she has been looking for. I don't want to discount her experience, especially because I know how much she struggled with her digestive health. And if this product appears to be working for her and the people that she's coached, that's great. However, standing outside of the network marketing paradigm looking in and understanding how we've developed these scripts around the importance of selling ourselves and our health, I can't help but wonder if her das and women like her need these products to work in order to justify the economic and reputational risk they're taking to become distributors in these companies.

Sarah Khan 38:44

Looking back on it now, there wasn't anything really revolutionary about it, you know, there was a very strong emphasis on being conscious of what you eat, and working out every day. And there were a variety of different exercise options that you could participate in. And so you could really kind of find the workout that you really enjoyed. And there was really no pressure in the beginning to adhere to a certain type of workout or lifestyle, you know, there's there was a whole bunch of choices. They were very, very big on a particular supplement. And that's, I think part and parcel of most MLM organizations that are you know, health based, there's a supplement, that's where you make the bulk of your money, because that's where the recurrent monthly fees will come in. Because someone buys an exercise program, that's a one off, you know, you have to you have to suck them into buying the supplement that, you know, yeah, you could probably get results without it. But this will increase your results, it'll make them quicker. And there are so many added benefits to it. So that's how you sell it, right? Like, Oh, you don't have a great diet, let's be completely honest, you're a busy mom, you're a busy employee, you're busy, whatever, this is going to help cover all your bases. And that's really kind of where it started. So pushing that supplement was absolutely paramount. That was the first fundamental thing that we had to do.

Kaila Tova 40:08

I mean, from your own personal perspective, did you believe in the things that you were selling?

Sarah Khan 40:15

You know what early on? Absolutely I did, you have to buy into the supplement as well, in order for you to stay active as a member of this organization. So you're spending money every month. And as a result of that you feel the pressure, okay, I've got to get other people to buy into it. Otherwise, I don't make any money. And, you know, I did at first you buy into the hype, because you're, you're involved, you suddenly get sucked into this community that is. And I hesitate to say it because I know people don't like it. But it's almost cult, like, you know, there's a cultish mentality to it that, you know, we are the answer, we are the ones who are going to fix everything, look how amazing we are. There's, there's constant bombardment of personal success stories. And all of these people, we're doing amazing things and people who've left their jobs and who've, you know, now making six figures doing this, and it's constantly thrown at you. So you do get sucked into that hype, and you get sucked into that whole lifestyle. And just the, you know, and what I had found over, you know, in the first maybe year was that the vast majority of people on my Facebook and on other social media, were all other coaches, all people from you know, other teams, our team. And so you, you get sucked into this community of people, and you stop really interacting with people outside of it. You know, and and, and so I think you kind of get stuck in this in this little bubble of, well, if these are the only people and I had noticed that, you know, I'd post something prescriptive or inspirational, everyone call it and the vast majority people responding or other coaches, the vast majority, people who are responding were people who are already in the cult. And so it's kind of this, this revolving door of accolades and affirmation, and so you really do get caught up in it, you really do. And it's hard to see the forest for the trees after a while.

Kaila Tova 42:14

Even Dana is trying to keep some perspective on personal branding, despite the imperative to be a product of the product.

Dana Schorr 42:22

Totally any, like I said, I can see it all, from the inside from the outside and my company and other companies. It's very true that it's it's, you start to wonder like, Okay, well, I wanted to be your Facebook friend, because I, you know, I'm your friend, and I want to keep up with what's going on in your life. But all you ever post is about this one company and what you're doing, like what else is going on in your life, you know, and I don't want to be your friend, if you're just your Facebook page is just a big old advertisement or whatever. So, you know, if I wanted to follow a brand pages, I would kind of a thing. So I think that's a that's a really good point, I think everyone is going to be different about how they do it. And I don't know which way is like the right way, as far as either morality or money making is concerned. Like I said, I'm no, I'm definitely not an expert on any of this. I'm not like a millionaire yet. Yet, I'll say, um, and you know, I just because I do it one way doesn't mean any other way is wrong or anything like that. I very intentionally try to intermingle my products and my use of those products throughout my life. And like my social media version of my life, I try to mix it in with my dog pole dancing, you know, traveling whatever family time, whatever it is, because it is important to me that, again, it's the whole being a product of the product thing, right? I'm not just trying to sell these products, because I want to make you know, $1 off of every time you buy something, I use these products every day. That's how they are in my life. And so then if people ask me about them, of course, I'm willing to talk. But for me, it's not just like, here's what I sell, let me try to sell it at every living waking moment I have. It's more like, here's what I use, oh, I also sell it if you're interested

Kaila Tova 44:28

in weight loss or health focused MLM. However, being a product of the product can create big problems for you, if the product doesn't actually work the way you claim it does, because weight isn't just a matter of supplementing harder or calories in calories out, losing weight with a weight loss supplement isn't as easy as putting it on auto ship, Sarah experienced that firsthand,

Sarah Khan 44:48

I have a number of underlying health issues which do make weight loss and whatnot, a lot more difficult than it should be. That's not to say I can never lose weight, it just takes a lot longer, it's a lot harder. There's a lot of factors that kind of fight against it for me. And that's something that I have been coming to terms with personally over the last few years. But, you know, if, if I wasn't seeing results as quickly, as everybody else, you know, I was obviously doing it wrong. There was something wrong with the way I was doing. I didn't want this was my favorite line. You don't want it bad enough. You know, and and that was the thing that really started to make me question What the hell I was doing. You know, and that's not to say that everybody's like that I made some wonderful friendships through the company. And some of those people are still involved with the organization. And they're doing really well, like they're doing well for themselves. They're authentic, they're able to, to sell their, their product and their brand, in a way that's comfortable for them. But I can see that they still struggle with the mainstream expectations of the organization. You know, and and a lot of it does come down to well, if I'm not seeing results as quickly, as they say, I should be saying them. What am I doing wrong? If I'm not making a certain amount of money every month? What am I doing wrong? And so no matter what you do, it always comes back to this is your fault. Yeah, you know, it's that shaming, that starts to happen. And it's not overt, but it's certainly pervasive. For sure.

Kaila Tova 46:17

Well, and especially in MLM it can be, I mean, it's hugely important that you see results. Because, you know, if you were if you were working for let's say, a corporation, right, you come in, do your nine to five, you're on a salary, you're going to get paid Yeah, right. Even if you screw up a little bit, you know, they're obviously if you if you don't screw up enough to get fired, right, but you you miss a deadline, or, you know, your team doesn't hit a goal, maybe you won't get your bonus, but you're still going to get paid that day, with no exaggerating, you bought a product, you got to get it off your hands, right? Yeah, you are responsible for your own success, in a lot of ways. If you're not seeing results, you're literally you have product like rotting in your closet, you know, I know that I've had family members who've done MLM and literally would open up the pantry, and they would just be boxes and boxes of nutrition bars that they couldn't sell that they pay for. So you're at personal risk, when you don't sell now on the podcast will talk to other people who are working for mlm that follow a slightly different model, but you still pay into the system, you still do have to product to be considered active. So yes, you do, you have to believe in the product, because you have to use the product. So you can show other people how to use the product. So you can get it out of your house, and needing to get that product out of your house can lead to some seriously disordered behaviors,

Sarah Khan 47:40

you know, when you don't start to see results as quickly as other people or as as promised, you start to panic a little bit and you start to invest more money in different products. And, you know, more, more, I don't want to say insane, but I guess more insane products, you know, things that are a little bit maybe not as healthy, they had a one product that was like basically a three day fast. That was supposed to help kickstart your, your weight loss. And when it came out, it was you know, all the rage. And everybody wanted to try it. And so I tried it. And it's essentially like two or 300 calories a day through various supplements. And it was just I couldn't get through it, I got through two days. And I said I'm going to kill myself if I keep this up. So you know, I had a donut. So the the the money thing almost becomes an inhibitor, it almost becomes like, well, you start to focus on that. And then the stress from that says, Well, I'm not losing weight fast enough. And it becomes this cyclical thing. And sort of as an aside, in having talked to a number of people within our team structure, I had actually found that quite a few people who were showcased within the team, as you know, people who had these massive transformations. And they they were touted as those transformations being a result of them being on the program. In fact, they were not solely respond, that program was not solely responsible for those transformations. A lot of those people who had these massive transformations had been on, you know, proper diets for years, or they had been working out for, you know, a year or two before they joined the company, or they had been doing something, you know, something else. And they got to a point where they had lost loads and loads of weight. And so they joined the company and then touted The company has been responsible for this massive weight loss. But you don't see that as a customer, you don't see that even as an average employee of the company. And so when you see someone who's lost 100 pounds, in, you know, eight months, you think yourself, oh my god, Wow, really, I can't lose 10. And I'm, I'm horrible at this. And it, it impacts your self esteem, it impacts your ability to make money because you stop building yourself. And I think that's a really big factor. You know? And you can't you can't sell what you don't believe in. And if you don't believe in yourself, how do you sell yourself? Because that's essentially what you're doing with MLM,

Kaila Tova 50:11

becoming a product of the product. In other words, merging your company's brand with your own can be disempowering in this context, how can you sell an MLM product if you're the product, and you don't believe in yourself. So let's go back to Brendan, who turned to MLM after leaving health coaching,

Brenda Swann 50:30

the products that I have now that I do sell to make a little extra money, I do, I do use and I do like, and I do enjoy to an extent. And I say to an extent because every single company out there, and I don't think it's limited to MLM companies, I think that we just see that more often. Because a lot of us spend so much on our social media, I think a lot of other products are doing the same thing. But anytime, like there are a lot of them that start veering into the we have this, it's going to cure your insomnia, insomnia, or is where you have this, like, you know, like they their products get produced to fix these problems that are so much greater than just take a pill, take a shot, rub some oil on it, you know, put some healthy sunscreen on it, whatever. Like there's so much more there that that person needs help with. And it's a combination of what you want to call Western medicine with holistic medicine, with tradition, whatever that however you want to label it all, like there's, there is a balance and guess what the fuck, it's okay to have a balance and use these different things. You know. So that's where I have sometimes a little bit of problem with even the companies that I'm involved with it are making me a little bit of extra money, because it's not that much more. But if it's enough for car payment, like, you know, I'll continue to put the effort into it. And again, you know, there is the part that I believe in and the part that I don't, and I'm going to stick with the part that I believe in and speak to that part. Because I can the rest of it, I'm going to say you know what? I don't know. And I'm okay with telling you that I don't know, because I'm okay with that. You're trying to find a different answer from someone else and comparing the information and how, how it applies to you. But it's it's hard. But it's hard because then there's the people your quote unquote teammates in this MLM world, you know, your teammates, that people are in your group or whatever, I don't even know whatever they call it, you know, and they're doing so much better. And they're meeting all their quotas, and they're doing, you know, they're making, you're making $300 extra month, they're making 1500 dollars extra month, and you're sitting here going, what the hell am I doing wrong man? Like, you know, and then you go down that path of like, well, I look healthier than her or him. And I do this and that and I have I have to balance a real job because then I start calling my job a real job instead of recognizing that every job is a real job, you know? And it's like, oh, she does a stay at home and play on the internet all day. So she's able to push her sales on people and like, wait a minute, what unhealthy behavior again, because now it's competitive, being competitive is good, but no, not it's not good when it's, you're wishing ill and others are saying bad things about it. Oh, my God, what is happening. And it's like this vortex of healthy, unhealthy, healthy, unhealthy, healthy, unhealthy with no real push, or no real advocate for balance,

Kaila Tova 53:17

I want to go back to a conversation that I had with Daniel Pink, the author of to sell us human to try to understand why there are people out there who willingly buy into this lifestyle when it can in some context, and for some people become an emotional and economic drain on the seller.

Daniel Pink 53:32

If you're if you're constantly finding problems that are end up being bogus problems. Again, it's the same thing, it's not going to work for very long. So you know, like you want to have clients and customers beyond a single transaction, you know, because that's a better business. It's a better business, if you have people who if you're a seller, and you have people who are loyal to you, right? It's harder business try to win over people over and over and over new people over and over and over and over and over and over virgin. Right? You want to be the restaurant where people that doesn't have to do a huge amount of marketing, because you're so good people want to come to you. And you know, and so and so if you are surfacing bogus problems all the time, it's you're not going to get the kind of loyalty that you need. But But I just to be fair, just to be fair, I mean, because I think you're right. I mean, there, you know, you can fool some of the people some of the time, there's no question about that.

Kaila Tova 54:26

Yeah. And, you know, it worries me because there are people who are also very willing to be fooled. I think not in a in a, you know, a commentary on their intelligence or even their decision making. I think there are people who just want so badly to find answers for problems, that when they find something that feels like it might be the right answer, they're willing to be told by somebody who says they found that problem for them. Like for example, you know, like, you look at a lot of the the multi level marketing diet products, these people build huge followings and repeat customers who keep coming back and keep coming back for a diet product that just doesn't work. Right? Because they want so desperately for it to work. Because the the way that those products are marketed, it's like, the problem for you is that you don't feel worthy or you don't feel valued. I think that to me is the number one thing, like people don't feel valued. They want to make more money, right? But how do you make more money? Well, you have to do something that's valuable, what's valuable, be thin. So, you know, so they come, they go back and go back and go back. And I mean, I, that was me a couple of years ago, you know, I guess 10 years ago, I did my first like a cleanse, and it triggered my eating disorder. So thankfully, I stopped doing that. But, you know, it was one of those things where it's like, I was willing to have that problem found for me, my problem was, maybe I could make a ton of money, and also be thin, and also have people love me and buy from me and, you know, create my own business too. Right? So it just worries me that there are there are people who will continue to. And I don't know if that's a problem we can ever really fix because, you know, you and I can't go around talking to every single person who sets up a square space right.

Daniel Pink 56:15

Now, but you make a good point that there is that in some case, you make a good point that in some cases, I think that there is a among in some cases among some people, there is sometimes a kind of a willing gullibility. I think you're I think you're I think you're right about that, you know, I see it in the, you know, I see it in the, in the book business where someone you know, where someone comes out with his or her I'm thinking one person in particular, it's a he, you know, has comes out with, like, his ninth Diet book in 12 years. And I'm thinking like, Okay, what was wrong with the first eight? Like, you don't I mean, it's like, you're, you're, you know, it's like, why, like, this is obviously some kind of scam here. Why are Why are people falling for it? But I guess they're falling forward for the same, you know, they want to, you know, the maybe not there, there, there. Maybe they're not buying a Diet book, they're buying the feeling of hope in that moment.

Kaila Tova 57:13

But what is that hope, really about? What does the weight loss or the muscle gain or the energy or the relaxation or any of the claims that these products make signify? What hope our multi level marketers trying to buy and why I believe it's about so much more than the body and we're going to get to the bottom of it in our next episode. But before we go, here's a little teaser from Sarah.

Sarah Khan 57:36

You become a clone of the industry. Yeah. And you become a clone of the industry. Well, there's that pressure you know, you you have to you have to recruit these people. You have to make money you have to sign this person for someone else does. And yeah, it's it's ceases to become about you, and your story and more about business. And you know what, let's face it. That's exactly what it is business. There's nothing personal about it.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Kaila PrinsJuly 7, 2021