One: The Ouroboros

Episode One:

The Ouroboros

Do you know where you first got the idea that thinner, leaner, more or less muscular was better? Do you know why you keep reading articles that tell you that your beliefs are true? How about why magazines don't publish more plus size women or why diet companies keep raking in millions despite studies that show that representation can change the way you think about body image and diets don't work? 

In this episode of the Your Body, Your Brand podcast, we'll discuss how representation of bodies is often tied to social and financial capital -- getting "likes" and getting paid -- and why we're all drowning in diet culture. 

Transcript

Sarah Vance 0:00

We still don't get paid what I believe we're worth

Tiana Dodson 0:00

I had secretly been wanting to try health coaching

Carrie Ingoglia 0:00

women have been dropping out.

Andi Zeisler 0:00

Your body is the next frontier of liberation.

Stefani Ruper 0:00

You have to monetize.

Sarah Banet-Weiser 0:00

We buy into this idea that anyone can do this

Victoria Ferriz 0:00

your body becomes proof

Kelly Diels 0:00

whether or not we're trying to sell a service or product. All women are brands

Brenda Swann 0:00

now I'm a health coach.

Kaila Tova 0:00

My name is Kaila Tova. And this is your body your brand. Episode One. The ouroboros,

Sukie Baxter 0:00

you know, when I started my business, you know, it was hard. It's hard to have a business, it's hard to have a client focused business, it takes time. And it takes a lot of self growth. So at the beginning, I was looking for a lot of guidance, and I hired lots of different coaches. And, you know, I was I was sort of fed that message of like, there's three industries there's what is it money, and relationships and health.

Kaila Tova 0:00

In 2012, just weeks after I got my first job in marketing, I discovered internet business. I was at the time recovering from an eating disorder, orthorexia, and exercise addiction, which was eventually diagnosed as anorexia. I had left graduate school to recover spending a few years in retail until I realized that I'd need a better salary if I wanted to move out of my mother's house and start my own life. It was a time of change and growth and discovery. I was vulnerable and impressionable and I was desperately searching for answers. I was also immediately aware of the fact that Well, my salary marketing job was a coup. It was also not forever. And that was when I listened to my first podcast about internet business, I started to hear the message everywhere. There's an entire world full of people who are frustrated with the rat race or inequality in the workplace, or lack of creativity or trust or growth from their employers. There was an entire world of people who were living their hashtag lives, and who wanted to help and inspire others to live their hashtag best lives to all it took was one big idea. One big break one unique, impactful and undeniable brand. And I could be free, free to finally build a life for myself without the stress of a nine to five job and the demands of an overpaid CEO and the fear of that my life was meaningless. But I'd need a brand. And to build a brand, I need a business. And to build that business. All i'd need was my body.

Like me, you may have been dieting your whole life. You may have been dieting for so long, you don't even know what life looks like when you aren't restricting food groups are counting calories, you may still believe that calories in calories out is a legitimate mantra by which to live your life, you may still be bought into the idea that you're calorie or macro counting isn't a diet, it's a lifestyle. Like me, you've probably been at war with food in your body for so long that you just assume it's normal to feel conflicted about what you put in your mouth, or to feel like you need to atone for eating. It's just a part of the culture. It's just something everyone does. But and I'm either about to blow your mind. Or I'll just say the thing you know, but you've been trying to deny. dieting is not normal. It's average, but it's not normal. It's not a genetic predisposition. It's not a thing that humans have always done. Children are dieting younger and younger. There are statistics about children, mostly girls as young as five years old, who are actively dieting. It's not because they want to or because like play, it's part of the human developmental experience. It's not even though it's been normalized for so long that it seems normal. Children are writing because they see it modeled by the adults in their lives. And the adults in their lives are dieting because it's been pushed in marketing for the last century, at least first and paper advertisements, like magazines, later on TV and radio. And now of course in blog posts, Facebook ads, Instagram posts, Twitter, DMS, you name it. But dieting isn't normal, obsessive exercise isn't normal. And yet, everyone I know is on a diet or talking about their next exercise program. Like it's the answer to all of life's problems. And a lot of people are choosing to get paid for that belief. And the reason they're making that choice? Well, they do get paid for it.

Sukie Baxter 0:00

So you know, obviously I'm working with bodies. So that falls into health, right? So. So then you look at Okay, well what are the health challenges that people have? And the way it was framed for me was like, okay, you sell people on what they want. And then you get them in and you do this, like, magical transformation with them. And, you know, you you give them all the growth stuff that you have, because, you know, most of us coaches are doing this not necessarily because we want to see a bunch of skinny bodies walking around or whatever our our thing is that we're coaching for, but because we really want people to grow and be happier and healthier people. And that that didn't work for me because it felt like a bait and switch and I wasn't getting people who were you know, people would come in and I'd be like, Yeah, but there's all this growth stuff. And they'd be like, yeah, yeah, but how do I get skinny?

Kaila Tova 0:00

That's Sukie Baxter, a radical body worker who started out in routing. routing is an intense and systemized style of bodywork and people used to come to her looking for movement with the belief that movement would lead to weight loss, not the belief that movement would lead to better mobility. In this episode, I want to give you some context for this podcast about the world we're living in and the mindsets we're dealing with. Before we jump into the discussion of how this mindset combined with systemic problems in today's working world, influencing women, identifying people specifically to drop out of corporate jobs and sell their body image, I don't want to assume that you're done with dieting, or that you've embraced body positivity, I don't want to assume that you've left behind body positivity and pursuit of social justice and fat acceptance. In fact, I don't want to assume that you're anywhere on your journey other than where you are. And for most of us, that means you're mired in the messaging that our bodies and other bodies are not enough and too much. To that end, we're going to talk to several coaches like Suki who have faced the pervasive diet message about where it came from, and why we need to overcome it.

Melissa Toler 0:00

I, like many girls and women have spent the majority of my life obsessing about my appearance, but specifically my weight. And you know, it kept me from doing a shit ton of stuff just kept me from living my life. And, um, you know, I got to this point where I'd started to have these thoughts. So this can't be it, like this idea of going on a diet or some sort of weight loss plan several times a year like this, this can't be what I'm here for this cannot possibly be life. But when I looked around and saw other women and I saw images and magazines, like it seemed like that was what it was like that is what it was to be a woman to always be everything just to exist.

Kaila Tova 0:00

Melissa Toler is a body image coach and a writer. After being a chronic dieters, and even a competitive bodybuilder, which we'll hear more about. In a later episode, she started asking, Why? Why are women like this? Why do we want in air quotes to be dieting or exercising or effort, as Melissa called it all the time? It comes down to the message, it's everywhere. But where does the message come from?

Melissa Toler 0:00

The obsession with weight loss and intense fat phobia is insidious is pervasive. We believe it's nor it feels normal, because we see it everywhere all the time. And so you almost have to bombard yourself with the opposite to slowly get out of that way of thinking. And I think for most people, it's not an easy process. It's not a quick process. Yes, maybe there's some things that you read or heard that flip the switch on for you. But then there's still work that happens after that. And so where I am now is I'm completely anti diet, I don't sell weight loss, and I haven't for like, a year or so. And I'm very clear about that. I and, you know, I'm still, you know, there's still a voice inside my head that is like, Whoa, you know, maybe you should go to the gym five days, this week, maybe you should start lifting every day, maybe you should. And so I hear that voice. But I don't act on it. So I don't know if the voice ever goes away. But my voice is still there, telling me that you couldn't be leaner, it's summertime. And these are things I don't believe like I write about, like the whole, you don't have to be slim for summer like that you just don't. And, but there's still a little voice that says, hey, well, you could probably be X amount of pounds slimmer, but I don't listen to that voice. And one thing I am not triggered by like weight loss ads or seeing other people that so I can I can read stuff and look at stuff and not. It doesn't take me over the edge. But there is sometimes a little voice in my head, but I just say I ignored and then I move on.

Kaila Tova 0:00

You know, it's it's interesting, because, you know, I feel like I'm not triggered by the weight loss ads anymore. The diet ads. But at the same time, I think that's where the voice comes from. Yeah, you know, because this wasn't an idea, like, I don't know, I mean, maybe it was just an organic idea that came out of like being in a body. But I feel like there's so much of we're so surrounded all day long by images by messages by people who are doing this diet or, you know, your company's hosting a fitness challenge or the magazines even in the rack as you're checking out, you know, and it it becomes almost like, you become numb to it. But at the same time subliminally in a way you're kind of picking up all of these signals and just collecting them and holding them as information and then, you know, it comes out as Oh, this was my idea.

Melissa Toler 0:00

Yeah, like I can stand in criticism of the ridiculous diet like I was at the nail salon yesterday, and I saw us weekly magazine where there were the stars give you their diet tips, and the word diet was in large font and and I just read it, and I was just like, this is all so ridiculous. And just seems like I can't even make it through these 20 tips on just put it down.

Kaila Tova 0:00

Well, it's funny, because they're all always exactly the same.

Melissa Toler 0:00

Same nonsense.

Kaila Tova 0:00

Yeah, how many times we can read drink more water before it becomes less interesting. And also more useful, because yeah, drink water. But that has nothing to do with your weight loss. But anyway.

The other day, I saw a post on Facebook, that led me to an article about the newest thing that women were feeling self conscious about. Do you want to know what that thing was? Wait for it. armpit vaginas? Yes, you heard that right, you do not need to adjust the volume on this podcast, armpit vaginas. Apparently, when you wear a bra, or a certain kind of top, it pushes up the skin around your chest and sometimes creates a little crease between your breast and the armpit that looks if you zoom in on the photo like a Libya. And this was a new trend that women especially stars on the red carpet, were worrying about and getting plastic surgery to correct. The reason that I mentioned this ridiculous thing is that I had never in my life ever considered that little pinch of skin near my armpit. And all of a sudden, after reading just the headline, I was thinking about it. Even though I don't give a damn what it looks like on my own body, I was just suddenly aware of it. This is how it happens. A mention a photo, a tie in with a celebrity. Suddenly you're seeing the message everywhere your body isn't good enough. You should be working harder to make it better different thinner, more tight, toned and taught. The articles and blogs and Facebook Instagram posts feel like an imperceptible avalanche. You see and hear a message everywhere until you are so buried that you don't even realize you've been suffocated. Why all of a sudden are people interested in keto diet? Is it because keto is truly the best diet or just because everyone is writing about it. Why are people all of a sudden talking about bikini bodies come may? Is it because this is what we're supposed to be worried about in the run up to summer, or did someone manufacture summer as Bikini Body season so they'd have something to write an article about? It feels really inevitable once that little worm has been placed in your ear, you know, you should look this up, you should know how to fix this, you should be buying a supplement or an exercise program or of course it or makeup or something to fix the thing you just heard about. You need a coach, a doctor, a holistic nutritionist, a cookbook. All because the media that you've been surrounded with every single day is constantly looking for new things to write about. So you'll keep coming their website so the advertisers can sell to you so the writers can get paid. They need to keep confirming your beliefs that you are not enough and you are too much. And they will do that so long as they can find new things to keep you picking yourself apart, like armpit vaginas, while feeding you the promise that quick fixes abound. It also doesn't help that many of the writers and marketers who are helping you discover the next thing to worry about are a part of this culture, and may also already have a pretty messed up relationship with food, fitness and body image themselves. To that end, I talked to my friend Christie Harrison, who's a registered dietitian and a body image coach as well as the host of the food psych podcast. Because she knows all too well how this sort of thing gets perpetuated and spread.

Christy Harrison 14:48

I started out as a journalist about 1514 years ago. That was my first career and you know, journalism has gone through some real upheavals and collapsed, you know, 20 years, right. So I was sort of right on the cusp of when online journalism was becoming a thing. I started out working at print newspapers and magazines, and then transitioned into online. And so I ended up specializing in food writing, I also had my own eating disorder history. So actually, at the time that I was starting my career, I was really struggling with restriction and bingeing and, you know, really in it with, with all that stuff. So I kind of became attracted to food as a beat to cover and ended up working at a Mac, a food magazine called gourmet that many people may know, rest in peace. So I was there until the end, they closed it in 2009. And I worked there for two and a half years as their online editor. And so as that was sort of, you know, there were rumblings that something was going to happen, there were going to be big layoffs or potentially folding the magazine, right. So all this stuff was happening, sort of in response to the financial crisis of two was an eight. And so I started to reflect on like, what I wanted to do with my life, potentially other than journalism, because there was so much upheaval and change happening in that industry. And because of my history, and you know, with, I mean, as a food writer, and sort of immersing myself in that world, I sort of cobbled together a recovery, and I did eventually get therapy, that really helped get out the underlying issues with my eating, but I was still, you know, somewhat disordered about food. At the time, when I started considering going back to school to become a dietitian, and I was covering food and nutrition, I was writing a lot about food politics. So I thought, you know, Masters of Public health, nutrition might be an interesting path to go down. And, you know, it's helped me write about, you know, systemic issues with the food system, and maybe potentially work in policy. So I ended up working for the City Department of Health, and nutrition policy is my first nutrition jobs. And, you know, decided I also wanted to get the rd to potentially do individual counseling, or just have the credential after my name to be an expert source and write books and stuff like that.

Kaila Tova 17:10

I think you have a really unique perspective, especially coming from the journalism world, you know, you have to have something to write about. Right? I'm actually really curious, while you were still in journalism, specifically, food journalism, how did you find your stories?

Christy Harrison 17:28

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I would subscribe to news alerts about various topics, I would read voraciously, you know, just try to read everything that other people were writing about food. And when I covered nutrition, this is the thing that's a little problematic about nutrition journalism that I always like to highlight, is when I covered nutrition, I would subscribe to these news briefs that were like, you know, new studies every day basically delivered into your inbox that had, you know, just sort of absurd conclusions, or had or, you know, some of them were very titillating, right, these studies that we see, like, chocolate, you know, gives you cancer, whatever, like the the completely off the wall things, you know, that was coming into my inbox every day. And I, you know, when I started out in journalism, I had no idea how to read a study, or how to understand whether a study was valid, or the results could be generalized to the population. And so, and, you know, some of my editors were a little more versed in that stuff than I was, but not by a whole lot, you know, like most people who are journalists don't go through a research methods program, unless maybe they did a science journalism, you know, program in school or something like that. But I mean, I wasn't really working in science journalism, a lot of the people I was working with had been in food their entire careers. Or, you know, I started out with working in environmental magazine, and a lot of the folks there had been writing about, you know, science in the environment from a sort of techie perspective, but not, you know, not like health journalists, right. And so, I never really learned how to determine what was a good study to report on or not. And I would just sort of say, like, Hey, this is interesting. You know, like, what do you guys think, to my editors? And people would be like, Oh, yeah, that's super cool. Like, write something up. And let's post it. You know,

Kaila Tova 19:19

currently, I'm part of cision, which is a public relations platform for journalists and PR, folks. And what that does is it connects you. So I am, when I was podcasting about food, I was like, well, this is great, because maybe I'll find some new sources. Right, as a quote, unquote, technically not really a journalist, but as a quote unquote, journalist with my podcast, right. I would get PR briefs from people with books for me to read or stories that they wanted to come on the show and talk about, and then I could just respond to whichever PR press release came through, and potentially revenue source. I'm still part of it. But now I just use it for the absurdity. I get a slew of press releases in my inbox every single day. And all of them are problematic, like all of them. And it's one of the things that's really interesting to me about public relations and the way that it affects journalism, which then trickles down into the online world, which then trickles into the way that we talk to each other on our social platforms, which then trickles into the things that you have to coach people about is that there is in public relations, it seems like there's kind of a an aura borrows, like snake eating its tail thing, where it's like, well, because it's Bikini Body season, I have to write about Bikini Body season. So I'll tie my product thing, whatever into Bikini Body season so that journalists will see Bikini Body season and know that this is a story that's relevant to them, and then they can then write about it, which then reinforces that Bikini Body season isn't even even a thing. Right? Does that make sense to you? Hmm,

Christy Harrison 21:05

totally. Yes. Yeah, I saw that all the time, too. And because it was the same thing, I was subscribed to a lot of PR, you know, services. And then people would also like, public relations, firms would discover that I was writing about a certain beat, or I would meet them at an event or something like that. And so then I get on these lists for press releases for everything under the sun. And it was very much that it was sort of like, you know, and it was sometimes really far fetched stuff to like, you know, because the national Almon day or whatever, you know, just like very silly things that no one would ever take seriously. But, but for something like Bikini Body season, it certainly is, you know, culturally reinforced. And when you see because we would also like pay attention to what our competitors were up to. And when you see like, Oh, you know, this magazine is doing a feature on this, right? Like, that affects how you, you know, that that might mean like, Hey, we should do a feature on this, or we should at least be covering this. Because it's something that that people in this niche seem to want.

Kaila Tova 22:07

Yeah. And that's, that's it right there. So the crux of marketing psychology of public relations, propaganda, because that is actually what public relations is, like, from a historical standpoint is the focus is on quote unquote, what people actually want. Right? So what happens is, a journalist gets a story. And it's like, well, I don't know how I feel about Bikini Body season. Right. But they posted anyway. Right? And they get tons and tons of clicks. So that validates, oh, it must be that this is what people want, oh, people want weight loss. People want miracle cures, people want, you know, Moon juice and wellness, right. But at the same time, it's like, well, they want it because they've been shown that they should want it. Right. And so they don't know any better. And from a psychology standpoint, yeah. If you show somebody something that's a miracle versus something that is, like, mildly interesting, they're going to click on the mic on the miracle. Right. That's how, that's how clickbait works. Right? They want the most extreme example. So as a as a journalist, as a public relations professional as even just an a blogger, right? We have to make that decision day in day out, do I write the thing that's going to get more people to my stuff? Or do I write the thing that is maybe morally and ethically less reprehensible? You know, and instead, we choose to go for the reprehensible stuff, or the easy low hanging fruit or whatever you want to call it? Because it's quote, unquote, what people want, but it's only what people want, because we've already reinforced it culturally. So if it's not a part of the culture, then we don't need to want it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't anybody naturally wants weight loss, like, there were not early Homo sapiens worrying about their waist lines, right? there really weren't even people up until, you know, we're talking like, I don't know, probably within the last two centuries, that we're really talking about diets as a culture wide thing. You know? And yes, like food itself, we can talk about all the problems systemically with food and Oh, yes, it's making people say blah, blah, blah, Big Pharma, big AG, whatever. But, like, at its core, people don't want weight loss. People have been taught to want weight loss.

Christy Harrison 22:07

Yeah, that's such a good point. It is, it's not snake eating its tail thing, right? It's like, well, we have to write about weight loss because people want weight loss. Why do people want weight loss? It's because we're writing about weight loss. Like,

Kaila Tova 22:07

exactly, exactly. And it's, it's like, it's crazy, man. Yeah, it absolutely is. And it's one of the things that makes it very difficult, then, when you leave journalism or whatever, and go and become your, the blogger, that you are the podcaster to then create a business telling people that that's not what they want.

So when women drop out to become coaches, and again, I'll talk about why they might want to do that in a future episode, they go where the money is the path of least resistance, I chose to become a health coach because I was already obsessed with fitness and nutrition. I was paleo at the time, after having been a vegan and a bodybuilder. I had a personal trainer certification, and I was thin, although I believe not lean and fit enough. Becoming a health coach, nutrition guru, personal trainer, or someone who works with bodies means being seen, especially on the internet. I had to be visibly lean and muscular to sell fitness to other people. I had to be visibly healthy, free from acne and traces of fat cellulite and other normal human things in order to convince people that I was the kind of person who could sell them a diet and a lifestyle that would optimize their health. People were I believed counting on me to visually represent what they wanted to become. I had to be consumable. My brand promise was the fodder that would replace the calories that they weren't eating. And I got trapped into the belief that I still had more work to do. Here, Suki, again,

Sukie Baxter 22:07

it's an interesting line to walk as a person who works, whether it's health coaching, or weight loss coaching, or, you know, in my, in my field, you know, posture movement, that people look at your body a lot. And so that's another piece of the brand, when you go to my website, there's pictures of me on there. And I definitely do have some discomfort with you know, it's something I think about a lot is that, you know, why am I presenting myself in such a way you know, it down to like, what, what clothes am I wearing? And why am I wearing these clothes? And you know, how am I doing my hair? And should I wear makeup? And for me, I'm very tall. So I work with people who are professionals. And one thing I consider a lot is like, should I wear heels? And I think I think about this a lot because you know, in my opinion, I don't like heels, they're not good for your feet, they're not good for your body. I don't tell people, they can't wear them, but they're kind of like desert, you know, so you don't like people wearing them all the time. But there's definitely, um, you know, if you go into a corporate space, and you are a woman, I noticed that, that women who wear heels, you know, have an aura of power around them, because it's a cultural thing, right? So. So I think that in the marketing of any body centered thing, there can be some trouble with figuring out how to present yourself, and how to be in integrity with your ideals, while still, again, meeting the client where they're at and being in an acceptable place for them. And I think for you know, if, if you're in the coaching field at all ends, especially around weight loss, it is really a challenge, because I think we've been taught, you know, I mean, I know I heard it a lot that you don't want to follow a coach who hasn't mastered the thing that you want to master, right. So if you're trying to lose weight, you don't want to follow a coach who's overweight like that. I've heard that so many times. And so and it makes logical sense. But it also doesn't make sense. So it's, it's it's an interesting question. And I think it's one that if we are marketing in a health or body centered field, we need to be really intentional. So I may wear makeup and get my eyebrows done. And I know why I'm doing it, you know, I'm doing it because it allows me access to people who are in spaces where I see a need for the kind of work that I'm doing. And I see that the greater benefit is that I'm getting into those spaces and doing the work. And then it will have ripple effects. You know, it'll if I if I can work with an entrepreneur or an executive and get him in a more regulated space, or her in a more regulated space, then the people around that person are going to also feel the benefits, they're going to have a safer, more trustworthy leader. It's going to make our workspaces less toxic. So can I can I get my hair done and my eyebrows and put on some makeup and buy some fancy clothes for that? Yeah, I can make that compromise. But I'm doing it intentionally right I'm not just doing it sort of unconsciously not knowing how I'm playing into the culture.

Kaila Tova 22:07

Unlike Sukie I was not making intentional compromises in my marketing. I was marketing what I thought people wanted what I thought I wanted perhaps what you think you want to you know if I were to ask you what you think of when you think of a popular Instagram influencer or blogger or health coach, what does that person look like? Alright, so I can't hear you talking back to me over your car radio or your air pods so I'll answer for you. It's a she and she is femme. Maybe blonde but definitely put together. She gets her hair done her nails done her to do list on her life done. Even when she posts a no makeup selfie, she still looks like she stepped out of a magazine. Her skin is flawless because of the supplements she takes or the oil cleansing regimen she just started or the brand of natural face cream. She's rapping. If she has children, she's the perfect mother. If she has a partner, always a husband, she gives him a cute name like Mr. Oatmeal or Mr. Skinny bitch. He takes the pictures for her and sometimes helps her with her yoga poses. And she is fit or thin or lean or toned. Depending on what her brand tells you that she must be. She's flexible, but strong. She did it through progress, not perfection. But Come to think of it, you've only really seen the perfection. She is aspiration embodied. And her body is a commodity that you can buy. If only you sign up for her next coaching series, or purchase the exclusive supplement line that she's affiliated with. With a body like hers, your life could be just as beautiful as the one she shows you. You could be thin, toned, and empowered.

Melissa Toler 22:07

And you know, weight loss is often sold as empowerment and that makes me want to rip my eyebrows out when I hear because it's you know dieting to lose weight is probably one of the most disempowering things that you can do. And so when I see women specifically selling to other women, you know, empowerment, which is sidebar, like one of the fluffy his words these days, because empowerment is sort of become something that you just sell tickets to, it's really meaningless. When I see that, I'm just like, this is not empowering. It isn't when you hand over the keys to your body and your life to someone else to tell you what to eat, what to do, and how to spend your time trying to shrink yourself, you lose your power, it's not empowering at all. And yeah, I want people to realize that. And you know, I started to think about this when I saw a, someone who is pretty well known in the internet space who was like a money mindset coach selling weight loss. And, you know, she, in her regular business talks about financial empowerment and empowering women, but then turns around and, and so something that is not empowering at all. And I've seen that in the past month, I've seen that three times from three different people.

Kaila Tova 22:07

Let's jump back to our conversation with Christie Harrison.

I was actually targeted with an ad on Instagram. The other day that I posted on Facebook, I have a an album on Facebook of terrible marketing pitches, which I just screenshot basically everything that I get from decision and Instagram and Facebook every day. But one of one of the screen caps that I took was this ad on Instagram, for a woman who is pretty clearly a Beachbody coach. But Beachbody has a very specific marketing plan that they give to their people. So but this person was targeting me. And in all caps, she was highlighting that she was looking for women who were driven, and wanted to live on their own terms, so that they could be better mothers and wives, and, you know, be able to stay, they'll have time for their family while they're working. Like this was the message that she was. And so the entire sales pitch was which, you know, yes, you should be able to have work life balance, I think is a good message. But the way that she pitched it was not work life balance, it's you can you can still make money, but you're a great mom and a great wife, you are going to live up to all of the hetero normative ideals, while also having quote unquote, your own terms, right. And the pitch was for you to become a Beachbody Coach, of course, because you know, now, it doesn't say that. But because Beachbody coaches never put that they do Beachbody on their profiles, they just say sign up for my next cycle of coaching. Yeah, it's very deceptive marketing, it drives me up a wall. The point is your marketing is not saying by doing this, you will reach the hetero norm. Right. Right. And it's Yes, it is targeted probably more towards people who identify as femme, right? Probably people who are sis Gender, Women might resonate with your message specifically because that is who you are. And that is the experience that you have, right? Doesn't mean that you cannot work with people who are outside of that. But your your marketing isn't activism, you have to pick a niche. Right? Like this is a thing that I am constantly saying you do have to pick a niche. And unfortunately, Nisha is not inclusive, even though you are inclusive in the voices that you've sent her on your podcast, right? Um, but yeah, so I will say of your marketing, it is not, it doesn't reach that scary sort of CES hetero normative white aspiration, if you will, because I think that's what happens in the body image world. It's like, you know, there is a coach that I used to highly respect, who's gone from coaching about body image to coaching about regaining your family. Right? And it's all about you know, and there's nothing wrong with identifying as fam, and embracing those femme qualities, if that is a thing that appeals to you, or it's just that the the language of it tends towards this, this hetero normative tends towards the disempowering under the guise of empowerment, right? It tends toward relieving you of your duties of taking control of your own destiny, and just like, well, as long as you can perform this, you've done it. Right, right.Anyway, sorry, that's a tangent.

Christy Harrison 22:07

But that's so important and interesting. I think it because you like what you're saying that aspirational thing, right? It's the the female lifestyle and power brand is sort of Yes, which is Kelly deals is term for this sort of type of marketing, right? That's like centering white sis able bodied, heterosexual, usually young women, and you know, showing this aspirational life that people want, and, you know, sort of people are told they should want to attain at least, and then saying that you can have this too, if you do my coaching program, or if you buy my product, or whatever it is. And yeah, that is so problematic. And just so not me that I think that has been a consistent thing that I've had to just listen to my intuition about of like, Where is, you know, where am I getting pressure to be aspirational and, like, sell something that I don't even believe in Italy, you know, like that work is not about that, right? Work is a is a separate sphere that can, you know, support a family for sure. But not like, just yeah, it's sort of like gaslighting almost to say, like, you know, you can live life on your own terms and be empowered in order to write perform this role that women have been forced into for millennia. And it's only, you know, in the last century, or so that we've had some options outside of that. Right.

Kaila Tova 22:07

Right. And, you know, and that is how we sell diets. Because if, if you accept that the role of a woman, you know, obviously I say, woman, then there's so much baggage attached to that word, but let's just talk in general terms, right, the role of a sis gender heterosexual woman is to be a wife to be a mother, and to also embody, it's like to embody, you know, youth and sex and desirability, objectification, and also to embody mother and home and, you know, the sense of like, Puritan values, right? Yeah. And there's a huge I mean, this part, this is why dieting is a thing, because it's like, Okay, if you are intended to have to, you know, embody all of these things, will you have to look a certain way have to be desirable. And again, this is an arrow, borrow situation, the snake eating its own tail, where it's like, well, right, but why do you have to do that? We just, it's just because we've been told that not because we came up with this concept organically, right? Right. Um, but yeah, it's all about like trying to control your body so that you can be consumed. Right, right, in a way that is pleasurable for, you know, ostensibly, a sis gender heterosexual male. And of course, then that language has now trickled into non hetero normative relationships. I know, you know, there's a huge pressure for gay men to have their bodies look a certain way. Right. And there's huge there's huge pressure on everyone, in order to avoid being harassed, Miss gendered? You know, you know, had having violence committed against them to look a certain way as well. Right. You know, and so it's just like, that, that language of like, you know, Sis, Gender, Women must look a certain way has trickled into everything totally, you know, and as marketers, it's so easy to take that and say, well, because it is this way, let me help you feel better. By doing this right now, and I'll have you do it in a way that feels more palatable to you, right, we'll call it body positivity, we're call it empowerment. We'll call it this. And the other thing to make you feel like doing this is giving you something that you want or need. But in reality, when you perform this no matter what, you are doing something that is perpetuating violence against your own body.

Christy Harrison 22:07

Yeah, right. Yes. I mean, it's like the people who say intuitive eating as a way to have the weight just effortlessly fall off, you know, right, like, intuitive eating is about rejecting the diet mentality about accepting your body wherever it lands. And oftentimes, if you've been dieting and restricting, that's going to be at a higher weight than you started out with, you know, some people might lose weight, some people gain weight, some people stay the same, but like, you know, people who market themselves as intuitive eating coaches who help you lose weight in a, quote, healthy, gradual way or whatever, just drive me up a wall, because it's, it's completely misunderstanding what intuitive eating is. And it's almost like, did you even read the book? Because it's in the book? Like, if you read the book, you would know this is it's not about achieving a certain body size, you know? Mm hmm.

Kaila Tova 22:07

Yeah, exactly. But, you know, from a marketing perspective, from a PR perspective, because the snake has eaten its own tail. So for so long, it's very hard to convince people that that is not correct, right. That's not something they should want.

And one more jump back to our conversation with Melissa Toler. It's so interesting, because I think we both kind of came to this conclusion on like, in, in, in weird, opposite bubbles of the world. But the idea of dieting being violence against the body, you know what I mean? And so I want to talk a little bit about that, and kind of what your thoughts are there.

Melissa Toler 42:29

Yeah, so this, um, this kind of goes back to that voice that I always heard that was deep inside of me that said, This is not right, this can't be. This can be it doesn't make sense. But I'm always trying to eat less to weigh less. And so in late 2015, I read a post written by Rachel Cole. And it was just simply titled dieting is a violent act. And when I tell you, I was like, that hole in that post, just clicked, and confirmed everything that that little voice inside of me had been saying. And she just laid it out how dieting is physically violent, emotionally violent, mentally violent. And if you've ever been on a diet or done something to intentionally lose weight, you can relate to that. And dieting is really, it's, it encourages us to go against ourselves on a regular basis, it encourages us to hate our bodies as they are and fix them. It encourages us to eat less, even if we want more, and encourages us to work out harder and go into quote unquote, Beast Mode, even when we are sick or tired or injured. It is violence. And and this is how powerful diet culture is. And even when so I read that, and I was like, Yes, this is what I've been thinking. And I just put it into words. But then I was like, well, is violence too strong of a word? Maybe that's, maybe that's too much. And and and then I realized, that's how insidious diet culture is, right? If it has you thinking, well, it's not that bad. And, and you think that because it's everywhere, like so it can't be that bad, because everyone else is doing it. And so that's, that was my thought process over it. Now, I am convinced that it is a violent thing. It just is. I mean, to you we live in I'm here in America, in a culture where food is prevalent, we have a lot of food, but then we intentionally don't eat what we want. I mean, just, it's, it's, it's a very violent process. And, and for me as a black woman, it it, you know that there's so many things in culture that tells me that I'm not okay. And this is one of them. And I cannot participate in that. I just don't want now that I know what I know, I cannot participate that is not healthy. And you know, then that's, despite what people say about the health and wellness industry is really not about health or wellness. It is about selling stuff. To help you lose weight, and wellness is not directed it. It's only directed towards certain people. It's as if certain people you can't afford it, you look a certain way You don't deserve to be well. So it's, it's it's very, the whole community to me, is very empty, and manipulative and individualistic. There's like no conversation around access to health care, health insurance, food. All I mean, I could go on and on about that. That's been something that's been burning a hole in my

Kaila Tova 46:06

well, please feel free to feel free. This is your space.

Melissa Toler 46:11

Yeah, just, you know, it's not healthy for me to go against myself. It's not healthy for me to think there's something wrong with me all the time. None of that is healthy. But it's it's sold to me, it's sold to us as healthy, it's not healthy to think that I'm somehow superior to people who, who aren't or can't get as lean as I can get like that, just as it just doesn't make any sense to me. But that is what health and wellness has become. It's become about green juice detoxing yoga on a mountaintop, and it's all directed toward young white women. Right? And just is like that is what health and wellness is about. And let me just tell you, the one it just really became clear. You know, here in America, the House of Representatives voted for the repeal and replacement of Obamacare, and there is a potential for millions of Americans to lose their health insurance. So do you think that any of these health and wellness gurus, leaders or advocates or whatever they call themselves, the same people who were in an uproar about the sugar content of that unicorn frappuccino didn't say jack shit about a mental health, the health insurance situation. So it's very clear that they have a narrow view of what health and wellness actually means, and who should benefit from it. So it just I don't, that's why I struggle with using the term health and wellness coach, even though that is an official term that I got certified for. I don't want to be associated with the state of the health and wellness community as it is now.

Kaila Tova 47:59

I am hundred percent agree I stopped calling myself a health coach A long time ago for that specific reason. It's like, Well, nobody knows how to find me now. Great. Yep. You know, but at the same time, you know, it's very clear that even when people you know, like, there are some wonderful people in the health and wellness community who have helped people get healthy, right, who are dealing with, like specific things that are very bad for your health, whatever, and they're, they're motivating people and inspiring them or whatever. But at the same time, you know, when you say that it's empty and manipulative and individualistic, you're right. Because at the end of the day, it's about generating more wealth from somebody else's fear of being broken. Yes. Um, you know, I left the Paleo world when I saw that happening. Because I would look at my friends who, you know, we get OK, so the way that I saw it, right, okay, so you get started in paleo, because you said saw, you know, somebody with a six pack, right? It's usually a white woman who does CrossFit or a white man who does CrossFit, you know, or they don't call it CrossFit. They do like bodyweight exercises, and Sprint's or something, right, and you see this image of the six pack. And actually, I can tell you, if you're familiar with Abel, James at all, but I remember a couple of years ago, he wrote a blog post about how he had written an article about health. And he had a be tested the article, and one version of the article he put on social media had picture of him with a six pack. And the other version had a picture of kale. And guess which one got clicked more.

Melissa Toler 49:42

His six pack pack. Yeah.

Kaila Tova 49:43

So you know, so what happens is they are market, they market like eating a little bit better, or like even the people who are into sustainability and stuff, they market it as weight loss, or they market it as muscles so that they can get you in because cultures already put that voice in your head. Right? That you're something there's something wrong with you. So you just get in, you're like, Okay, I'll just like maybe eat a little bit less bread and like, maybe a little more veggies. But by the end of it. I mean, I look at the panels at paleo FX this year. And I'm like, I'm ready to cry. Because it's like, we get down to this point where it's like, you have to continue to convince people that they are broken. Yeah, they're not. So they get so they get you from like, eat a little bit less bread and a little bit more veggies to like, now you're taking supplements to detox parasites that might be in your toenail or something like that. You know what I mean? And it's all and it's all sold with the six pack? Yes. And it's all sold with the white six pack. It's It is so it, it blows my mind that we can't see it.

Melissa Toler 50:52

Yes, we can't see it, it's really difficult to see that there's something wrong with that, because we're surrounded by it because we've been surrounded by it for our entire lives. So if you have to, yeah, it's almost impossible to withdraw from that because you don't see it as a problem.

Kaila Tova 51:11

Yeah, exactly. And so like when somebody like you know, you were I comes up and says, Hey, that thing you're doing it's a little bad, same weight. Same thing with the the fitness stuff, like the bodybuilding stuff. And somebody says like, yeah, maybe you know, selling weight loss, maybe not such a good thing. People are like, how dare you? How dare you take that away from me when this is this is my calling?

Melissa Toler 51:34

Yeah, yeah.

Kaila Tova 51:37

How dare you take that away from me when I'm helping millions of people to feel better about themselves? When in reality Are you are not only helping them feel better about themselves? Or are you helping them feel superior while they're in the middle of hating themselves? Yeah, right. Yeah. It's kind of like a savage to, you know, cool, the burn of that self hatred. You know, because at the end of the day, I hate myself so much that I've made myself better.

How did we get here? How did self hate turned into a message of empowerment? I interviewed Andi Zeisler, editor of bitch magazine and author of we were feminist once, from Riot girl to cover girl, because I thought if anyone had the answers, she would.

Andi Zeisler 52:26

There's an amazing writer named Susan J. Douglas, number of sort of culture, and she's sort of been like a mentor of mine. And one of the things she's written about is, in this in a book she wrote called, where the girls are. And it was, you know, sort of about growing up popular culture geared toward women sort of as the ambient white noise of her life. And one of them she talks, the kind of, sort of post second, pre feminist back last years of sort of like the late 70s. And this idea thata kind of narcissism began to stand in for feminism, because the narrative was that you know, for, you know, at least white middle class, somewhat educated women, the feminist movement had really achieved so many of its goals, you know, hit a hit secure the legal abortion it had secured, you know, things like the equal credit act, it had secured a lot more protections in the workplace. So there was this idea that feminism had really, really done a lot of what it was, what people had hoped it would do. And so, bear came in the aftermath kind of this much more consumerist focus on Well, now that you're liberated, what are you going to do with that? And, you know, so we have like, the Jane Fonda Workout where, you know, this former anti war feminist leaning activist was like, you know, feel the burn, because your body is the next frontier of liberation. So, and, you know, that was very, that was very true of the 80s, as a whole, in the sense of it, you know, was the decade where people really took a breath after, you know, the post civil rights, post gay liberation, post, second wave movement, and people began to be really into themselves and began to, you know, concentrate on, on what felt good to them. And, you know, so rationalized it as well, you know, we worked hard, we, you know, we mark, we suffered, we, you know, hunger strikes, this is our time. And so, you know, I wouldn't trace all of it to that. But I do think that that put in place, this mindset where it became very easy to conflate social movements with personal power,

Kaila Tova 55:21

you know, I look at all this and I, one of the things that happened to me and I see this happening to a lot of the women who became my clients, or listen to my previous podcast, which was all about eating disorder, recovery, even for people who didn't have eating disorders, but had all of the behaviors, there is a sense of accomplishment and of righteousness and of, I guess it I guess, empowerment, if that's the word I have to use by controlling your body and being able to gain cultural capital as a result. You know, I personally had a family member who never had a nice thing to say about me, tell me when I was, you know, under 100 pounds, that I finally looked good, and that was the first compliment she'd ever given me. You know, I started gain. You know, my, my very first boyfriend happened the same summer that I became an anorexic. And so, I see this happening, it's being taught now to people who don't have eating disorders. As a, you know, you look at the Beachbody coaches and Isagenix and advocate and all of the MLM companies and all of the diets and the fitness, I mean, CrossFit, it's all about masculine eyes, in your body in a lot of ways. Or ultra feminized in your body, there's kind of like that, too. And I use those binary words, knowing that that they're kind of bullshit descriptors, but I'm just for the sake of conversation. Um, you know, there's the sense that either strong as the new skinny or healthy as the new skinny and both of them these things are constantly about making choices to change your body and and bring that focus completely narcissistically inward, to optimize and change so that you can then present yourself to the world for some sort of cultural, you know, exchange of cultural or financial capital, right,

Andi Zeisler 57:20

one of the places where it's really hard to sort of parse all of this stuff about, you know, empowerment and liberation. And, you know, individual success versus collective success really is the body and particularly for women, because, you know, so much of our socialization has really been tied up in our bodies and our bodies have been equated with our value, our worth our ability to love and be loved our ability to be seen. And so that's, you know, that's a really hard place. And I feel like that's one of the hugest sort of sites of people having these kind of crises about whether they can truly act in a feminist way if they sort of buy into so much of anti feminist rhetoric when it comes to themselves. And you know, I mean, I struggle with it, too. I'm doing a sugar detox right now, and I want to like faceplant into a vat of ice cream. But I also am like, Oh my god, I'm like, you know, filming this segment of a documentary next week, and I hope I don't like I hope my face looks thinner. You know what I mean? Like, we all do this. And it is it does feel like in a feminist world, that wouldn't happen. But I kind of wonder.

Kaila Tova 59:02

I wonder, too, I wonder what a feminist world would look like one where we didn't have to constantly think about how our looks impact our ability to sell. One where feminist experts don't have to think about what their bodies communicate to others, one where we don't have to sell each other diets and thinness and over exercise under the guise of empowerment. But I suppose before we begin imagining that world, we have to start by understanding why we're looking for empowerment in the first place.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai