Six: A Cage with the Bars Labeled Freedom

Not every health coaching program starts or ends with an eating disorder — but that doesn’t mean that most forays into wellness entrepreneurship leads to fame, fortune, and a cookbook deal.

In this episode, we’ll look at how, branding becomes a performance and, as Pace Smith puts it, a “cage with the bars labeled freedom.”

Transcript

Sarah Vance 0:00

We still don't get paid what I believe we're worth

Tiana Dodson 0:03

I had secretly been wanting to try health coaching

Carrie Ingoglia 0:06

women have been dropping out

Andi Zeisler 0:08

your body is the next frontier of liberation.

Stefani Ruper 0:12

You have to monetize,

Sarah Banet-Weiser 0:13

we buy into this idea that anyone can do this

Victoria Ferriz 0:16

your body becomes proof

Kelly Diels 0:17

whether or not we're trying to sell a service or product. All women are brands

Brenda Swann 0:21

now I'm a health coach.

Kaila Tova 0:25

My name is Kaila Tova. And this is your body your brand, Episode Six, a cage with the bars labeled freedom.

Pace Smith 0:36

I have always struggled with finding my own purpose in life. I started out by kind of following the script, the American script of like, get a good job and gain the prestige of your peers and to make lots of money. And I felt empty. And I'm like, what, what you know, like, this is supposed to be winning, why doesn't it feel like winning? And then I quit my job and sold 95% of my stuff and moved into an RV. And I was like, Damn the man, I'm, you know, I'm gonna follow my own heart. And I thought that I was free but really, I had created a new cage for myself and labeled the bars freedom. And I was I wasn't just like an entrepreneur, I was an entrepreneur comma damage. And I just created a new identity for myself that I had to fall into.

Kaila Tova 1:41

In our last episode, we talked about how people with eating disorders are often drawn to coaching, and how coaching often teaches people without eating disorders, how to distrust their own bodies. Well, in the next two episodes, we're going to talk about how that disordered mindset around our bodies often translates into a disordered mindset set around our brands. You see, the thing is, when we start thinking in black and white about health and about wealth, it often changes the way that we interact with the world and with ourselves. Now, at the beginning of the episode, we heard from paste Smith, a pathfinding coach for spiritual nonconformist, and co host of the dervish in the mermaid podcast. She touches on that black and white problem with the concept of coaching. The language around online marketing sets up this duality in which there are people who toil at somebody else's passion and work for the man. And then there are people who throw caution to the wind and follow their hearts jumping headfirst into entrepreneurship. We idolize entrepreneurs just the same way we idolize Healthy People, at least here in America, imbuing them with almost mythical qualities. That is the entrepreneurs who make it big. And health coaching at least appears to allow individual women the opportunity to become big in their niche even as they're becoming or stains mall. But what happens when you were lowered into becoming a health entrepreneur, comma, dammit. And then things don't work out the way your business coach promised.

Brenda Swann 3:15

You know, I had been sort of pushed or guided or however you want to describe it towards health coaching as a wedding planner for you know, a variety of reasons. And I really had, at the time, I felt like I had a voice in my local community as a wedding planner. So whenever I would speak out about other things, health and you know, nutrition and CrossFit and running. And you know, depending on what I was into that week, I had a little bit of an audience listening to that, which again, expose me to meeting other individuals who are like me,

Kaila Tova 3:47

that's Brenda Swan, who describes herself as an advocate of merriment. She and I met while attending the Institute for integrative nutrition online in 2013. Despite the fact that she was already an entrepreneur in her own right, as a wedding planner, she felt like she needed to prove herself as a health coach in order to be taken seriously.

Brenda Swann 4:07

I mean, everyone took me seriously. And, you know, thought that I knew what I was talking about as a wedding planner, which is really funny, because being a wedding planner is completely unregulated, 110%, unregulated and I literally started this job by just doing things for other people in my quote, unquote, day job, my traditional job, you know, I put parties together for a fortune 500 company, because I was like, you know, the reception is, it had nothing else to do originally, you know, so I started doing these events, and I started figuring out how to make money off of it, and how to build a business and build that business. So again, legitimately had no background, no experience, didn't even have a boyfriend. So somehow, I became like an expert over the years, and I say, somehow, not to discredit everything I learned and taught myself taught myself. But it felt like it was so much easier than with, you know, health coaching, when you and I met, and I thought to myself, I'm going to go into this program and that program, and I'm really gonna get, I'm gonna get my certificate here, my certificate there, and I'm going to do everything that I can while still running a business still having a family. And, and, you know, how do I make myself legit? a legitimate voice and the health spectrum and literally, the way that I came into this world was because I was trying, I don't know, I think I was just trying to, to say that I was an expert at something, you know, and and nobody was really listening to me. So I was like, all right, well, I'm gonna go earn it.

Kaila Tova 5:30

What was it that Brenda was trying to earn? She was already an expert, and well compensated for it. What was it about health that was so alluring that it felt more important than any other job that she could have? I talked to Natalie Carey, whose brand name is barbell Blondie about why she went into fitness as a career. And I think her answer helps put things into perspective.

Natalie Carey 5:52

I grew up as a ballerina. And about around junior high, my ballet director started having conferences with my mom and me started telling her, you know, she needs to lose weight, if she wants the better roles. And she's really great dancer, but we can't cast her in the roles unless she loses weight. And so with that, and just being an awkward teenager, as we all are, and being totally uncomfortable with like the changes that my body was going through, and not really knowing who I was. I just started really questioning my looks and my body and what was wrong with me as compared to other people. And learning that my value was only only worth something in comparison with what other people were valued as and what their looks were valued for.

Kaila Tova 6:40

And I think we all know at this point, it's not just ballerinas who are exposed to this kind of messaging, women and girls are taught from an early age that their body is a locus of value. And it only matters in comparison with other people's bodies. The constant comparing begins to feel like a vocation. And so for many women, it's a logical leap for become one.

Natalie Carey 7:02

I actually started picking up running when I was in college, and I got into weightlifting, during a very random year and a half of my life when I lived in Japan. And that led me towards being a personal trainer in San Francisco, which is where I'm at today. But the tire journey has just been has just been filled with a lot of a lot of instances where people kept informing me that I had to look a certain way in order to be even considered by them as somebody who was worth being a friend or worth having a relationship with or worth hiring. And that message was reinforced in me since the time I was a teenager up until, I mean, it's enforced constantly, even today, but I'm just more ready to stand up and speak up against it. So I got into personal training originally, because I love waking up in the morning and working out and helping others people to work out like my, my family, my friends were coming to me asking me for help on their workouts and their nutrition. And so that's how I got started in personal training is because I loved doing it. I loved helping other people on this fitness journey. And when I started, it was definitely under the impression that I had to look a specific way in order to be a trainer. I even remember having this conversation with some random dude in the gym, when I was working on my certification. And I was working out really hard. And he came up to me and he was like, oh, man, you're making everybody else in here look bad. And I said, Well, I'm studying to be a personal trainer. And, you know, I need to look a certain way to impress my clients. And I remember this conversation, because I was so obsessed with having to look a specific way as a personal trainer. And over over the last few years there, it's not just me, it's a lot of other female personal trainers. And I'm sure male personal trainers get this as well is sometimes you meet people, whether it's inside or outside the gym, you say I'm a personal trainer, and they kind of give you like a once over to sort of evaluate you physically. To decide whether or not you're good at your job.

Kaila Tova 9:06

Natalie brings up a couple of interesting points. She mentioned that the reason she went into personal training was to help other people feel good in their bodies. And I would argue and will argue in a later episode, that helping other people is a big driving force behind why so many of us become health entrepreneurs, especially given the culture wide rhetoric and scaremongering around fatness and ill health by becoming health entrepreneurs, we feel as if we're part of this larger mission to save the world. But there are ramifications to doing that work. And those ramifications are almost always related to our looks, which is why I think the concept of branding on social media feels almost inevitable to those of us who find health coaching, personal training and other looks and health based professions. Here's Brenda again.

Brenda Swann 10:03

Oh my god, it was such a weird time, but I'm not gonna lie to you, I thought I was gonna save the world from bad health. I really, I really did I truthfully, honest to goodness, thought that I was going to have like a patient that you know, I'm late or not affection seeing a patient cuz I don't think I'm allowed to say that, since we're not doctors, although they make us feel like we are. I really thought I was going to help someone like, you know, stop their infertility problems or something to that effect with my potions of essential oils and, and knowledge of being authentic to themselves and meditating 10 minutes a day or something like that.

Kaila Tova 10:41

Right. And, and I think, you know, a lot of us do feel like, you know, health, or focus on health is the way to change the world and save the world. And when we take that in as our identity, you know, it's like, I have this knowledge, I've been doing it, it's working for me, it must work for everybody. And now I want to it's just like, it's like the natural extension of like, if you have the answer, why wouldn't you want to give it to everybody?

Brenda Swann 11:06

Right, right. Right. Yeah. And that's exactly, you know, where else it gets dangerous when you start getting the social media attention, because I had a, as I mentioned, you know, with the my business, I had a social media following that, you know, to someone who's insignificant and doesn't know any difference, like, Oh, I have 1000 followers, you know, for my wedding planning business. And I talked to these people all the time. And that's where they find me and they love how active I am. And I talked to these brides and grooms but they were always these couples were always you know, they come in and go because they get married. And then you know, you don't talk about them anymore when they think they want to be friends with you afterwards, but it's not about them. So they're like, Oh, we don't actually have anything in common. So Nevermind. So then all of a sudden, you start getting this, this attention and soft follow Fridays and likes and, you know, whatever from other people that are, you know, searching the little tag lines that fit fam and the fam bam, and the, you know, although all those things, I think that kind of contributes like, Hey, hey, I'm doing I'm really doing something.

Kaila Tova 12:05

Yeah. Awesome. Oh, completely. And you know it that's, I mean, it's a problem. That is such a problem. It's such a product. And it Yeah, it's absolutely self reinforcing. And then it's reinforced on the other end from other people. And you're just like, well, I'm in this now. So this is who I am. This is what I have to do. I've been called to do this. I have the credentials to do this now. Yes. And then what what happens?

Brenda Swann 12:32

Then what, okay, I'll tell you what happens, then you're too afraid to go out to frickin dinner with your husband to like Arby's, because you're just craving a damn roast beef sandwich that's salty, and just normal for $5 because you're afraid that you're going to see one of these people or someone's going to see you eating this sandwich at Arby's or wherever the hell you go, or a tub of for you. Because that was the other place I love going to well, there was this as a wedding planner, I was selling an image you know, I'm selling an image of selling an event I'm selling this magical dreams do come true every day just for you, and nobody else just for you. So I sell this this image, right. And I was at the grocery store one day, maybe 11 o'clock in the morning like after a spin class or something I looked wreck You know, it was a wreck from the spin class and I am just you know, but like my normal self like literally way look like this second. And I'm walking out the grocery store like going down the freezer aisle because I was hot. And I just just trying to cool off. And I saw one of my mother's of the bride. And she had this disgusting look on her face. Because she had never seen me outside. You know, the pretty dresses and the heels full full face of makeup like shopping for weddings doing wedding things. She had never seen me outside of that. She never seen me as a human being. So this this was like an ultra embarrassing moment. And it was awful. And and I told myself, I will never go anywhere ever again, where I can be recognized, you know, and not looking 110% my brand. And so then when that carried over to this fitness thing I was trying to do or this health coaching thing and like this Arby's I think actually was a Chipotle because you know, Chipotle is okay for us to eat as health coaches. And I saw one of my friends from my CrossFit gym because I was also obsessed with CrossFit. Because, you know, that's the best and only sport ever. Or at least it was at the time. And he saw me in there and he, you know, he he like just looked at me with my husband, you eat this stuff. And I was no I'm just here for I'm just here for Dayton. Payton's hungry and you know, I've been busy and I have business to run and I'm trying to launch this other business and like, you know, I'm just here for Dayton. I swear to God, I was never ever going to be caught dead ever eating outside of my home. And like, how healthy is that? Exactly?

Kaila Tova 14:56

Well, Brenda's story might sound like an extreme case, it's actually not isolated. Women are dropping out of the workforce to become coaches. And they are being taught that branding is extremely important to becoming successful. They're being taught to retreat into the images that they've cultivated for themselves. To put the image of the self they hope to be on a pedestal and to let their actual lives fade into the background. When I spoke with Sarah Banet-Weiser, the feminist London School of Economics communications Professor whom we met in Episode Three, she explained how the branding of the body is perpetuating itself and convincing women like Brenda that she too needed to become the image of her brand in order to be successful. Women drop out of the workforce, right? For a number of reasons, you know, could be children, it could be lack of opportunity. It could be there's an amine sexual harassment, right, there's a number of reasons. But a lot of women are turning to the internet as their way to make or supplement and income, they're becoming Beachbody coaches, they're, you know, they're they're taking classes through B School, which is the Marie Forleo how to like be perfectly branded online presence, that costs a shit ton of money. And Marie Forleo has been on Oprah, and it's because she's made a lot of money doing this, you know. But it's, it's this sense that, like, the only way that we can really control our lives is to begin performing our lives for other people. It

Sarah Banet-Weiser 16:24

well, and performing particular kinds of lives for other people. So I mean, I think that that's really true. And that has to do with in part, you know, like you said, all of the various reasons why women leave a traditional workforce be at sexual harassment, or, or lack of opportunity, or lack of equal pay, or, you know, you know, all the different reasons, right, that, that it is true that when you have when you leave the traditional workforce, and you have constantly around you, messages and ideologies about being your own entrepreneur, that Entrepreneur of the self, you know, yourself brand, you can do this, and then you have, you know, a lot of visibility on those few people who actually get make a lot of money being a beauty blogger, or, or the woman, you know, on Oprah, you know, building a self brand. So those exceptional cases, and, you know, kind of circulating so visibly that we, you know, that we buy into this idea that anyone can do this, anyone can be a success on YouTube, and and that that, in turn, just burns all sorts of new industry. So there's agents now for YouTube stars, you know, again, it's usually those kinds of industries that have been historically feminized and devalued. Right. So like, you know, and also seen as not real work, like, like, you know, here's how you create the best beach body, or here's how you put on makeup. So not real work, but also essential for the workforce. Right. So that's also part of that industry.

Kaila Tova 18:05

Yeah. Which, you know, it's, it's, and it's just yeah, it is troubling, because, you know, how do you have this conversation when, you know, women, you know, so if I were to go to somebody and I have had friends who have tried to convince me that the best way to make money is to sell a multi level marketing product or whatever. And, you know, and I've had conversations, frank conversations where I've listened, you know, and what I've heard is, Well, sure, I'd love to not be able to sell this, but what else can I do? Right, you know, and it's not a question of will do you go back and get a STEM education, or get your MBA? For a lot of women, there's not that kind of access, or the interest to be honest.

Sarah Banet-Weiser 18:48

And people still don't hire them anyway. Exactly. Ya know, there's, I mean, everyone's like, oh, there's a pipeline problem, there really isn't a pipeline problem. There's a hiring problem. Yeah. You know, but yeah, the I mean, it is it that that's why I that's why I think that it's really important for us to approach this with a nuanced perspective that, you know, that there are that there are, you know, ways that there are only so many avenues, especially for women, and, and for, you know, people of color that there are only so many avenues. And where, where we are seen as being sort of authentically creative. And, and and and so what happens is that you you had developed an industry about, again, about a curation of the authentic self online, that isn't authentic, in the sense that it isn't necessarily a reflection of that person, but it is a performance of authenticity. Hmm,

Kaila Tova 19:47

exactly. And, you know, and I know, there really aren't any answers necessarily about how we fix this. But I mean, I think a good part of it starts with the question of, Okay, so what is this performance really doing? And, you know, for I guess, for a lot of women, you know, the individuality question comes in? Well, it's what it's doing right now is helping me sustain my family or create a career or feel like I have hope, or whatever it is that the performance is doing on an individual basis, and not necessarily looking at the long term. And when we begin to perform our identities for money, it changes our relationship with ourselves and with the world. It changes how we interact with information, it changes the way we value both ourselves and others. As we talked about, in Episode Four, when you invest in your identity, it fundamentally impacts the way you move about the world. And that in itself can be dangerous. In our conversation about branding, feminist marketing, Coach Kelly Diels touched on the problem of identifying too closely with your brand.

Kelly Diels 21:00

Well, when we make something our identity, threats to our identity become something we have to aggressively reject and defend against. And so when we see that in even the political realm, when we make a party, our identity, any threat to the party has to be vanquished. So what that does is that forecloses new thoughts and new influences, you can be influenced by anyone or anything that might actually threaten your identity. Well, that closes us off and makes us smaller. And I think that's what happens in you know, the brand and online world too is we make a character, our identity. And so then we're not open to any outside perspectives, or influences or sort of new thoughts. And so we become very, very static, we become echo chambers, we become, you know, like recycled wisdom. And I just think that if we didn't focus so hard on merging our identities, with our brands, we'd actually have a lot more flexibility. And that would be personally enriching because we'd be, you know, constant growing in flux people, which is like a really satisfying and yet challenging place to be. But it would actually help our culture too, because we'd be like, there'd be more cultural transmission of good ideas, there'd be more cross pollination, you know, and that's kind of the place that I want to us, to lead us to, which is, you know, we, we can be flexible, we can be growing, we can be evolving and constantly shifting. And, you know, if you look back at yourself over the last year or two, and you think, wow, I haven't changed a bit. My message hasn't changed a bit, you know, I'd be concerned.

Kaila Tova 22:52

The problem with creating an online health brand is that well, it does allow for the cultural transmission of ideas. As we explored in Episode One, those ideas sometimes get stuck in a loop. Our cultural obsessions with both diet, culture and making money are top of mind all the time now that we can model both on social media. And what people don't see is the truthful behind the scenes look at what it actually means to be the person behind the brand. We get so caught up and following coaches and listening to their podcasts and reading their blogs that we forget that they may not be the people they appear to be on the internet. Or as in Brenda's case, they may be changing everything about themselves offline in order to better match the online version they've designed for themselves. In our last episode, we met Katie del bout author of let it out and a wellness influencer and podcaster. She and I discussed what happens when the cultural transmission of ideas get stuck in a loop and how it changes the way we value ourselves. And you know, and that's the funny thing is that those of us who are like searching for health coaches and stuff like that, we're the ones who we need advice, because we do spend, I mean, when I was going through something very similar, I lived on healthy living blogs, like, I just I read them all day long. I knew every recipe I knew every piece of nutrition advice that was real or not, you know, I read all the press releases that came out from every single study, I could tell you how many calories were in the avocado, you know, like, I was, like, I was the person who leaves needed a coach, but I was the most interested in it. You know, and I think, you know, the important thing, too, is saying, okay, you know, so and I know this applies to me, and I it sounds like kind of applied to you as well. It's like, I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. But I did, I knew what I was good at. And I was good at my body. I was good at my body, even if I had been a little too good with the eating disorder, if you will, right. But I knew that now that I'm, you know, recovering, I can help other people. And I can make money doing this because I see other people doing. You know, and it became like, I mean, to this day, like I struggle to be in corporate America, because I'm like, I could be doing so many other things right now. Why should I be here when I see people making money on the internet?

Katie Dalebout 25:14

Yeah, and I mean, I think it's it's definitely true outside of the wellness and fitness and health coaching and industry that there are more people wanting to be freelancers and work for themselves, it's very alarming. Probably more so than ever because of the internet. And because of the ease. And because of all these, you know, benefits of being able to be location independent, and control of your own schedule, you know, like entrepreneurship has always been a Loring, I'm sure, but it's even easier now with the internet more than ever, and I was just talking to someone this morning, who is a wellness influencer. And she was saying, you know that most so the people that she knows who aren't, who do work for someone else really want to not be and are trying to figure out a way not to be, and I and I get it, I agree and I'm, I'm I'm kind of in that boat myself, you know, like I, I've worked a full time job throughout everything I've created on the internet, which I don't talk about a ton. And people are usually pretty surprised when actually, I don't think I've ever really talked about it, people are usually pretty surprised when when they find out. But it's been great to not have to have to put the pressure on my full time on my creative work, which for me is the podcast or my book, or anything I do on the internet, it's been great to not have to put the pressure on that to make me money. And to just be like, this is what I'm going to put out. And I I'm taking care of my rent is going to be paid by this other thing. Yeah. But at the same time, there are days when like, the other thing really isn't great. And I wish I was doing my thing full time. And, and there are other days where it's you know, it's pretty chill, I even enjoy it. And it's it's not bad. And I'm really grateful for it, you know, it ebbs and flows. And I think that reality is that it would Evan flow, if I did just do my thing full time, I would have days that were really, really great. And I would have have other days that were terribly awful. And that's the reality of having a job. You know, I remember like, I had a mentor who I admired and I really, really wanted to have her business model and, and you know, be just like her for a really long time. And somebody told me who worked for her on her team was like, she has days where it's like Excel and budgets and like things that she doesn't want to do, too. But you don't see that on Instagram, like you see the very alluring things, you know, the times where it's the not the maybe the everyday things in it's just like anything else with social media, you're seeing the highlight reel of someone's life, you're seeing the highlight reel of someone's career. And I think it's very, very alluring Lee and this is why this is such an interesting topic and an interesting conversation of, you know, after college for me, I didn't want to be a blogger or a speaker or a, you know, self help book author or a coach of some sort. Like I wanted to do all those things. I just couldn't figure out how to do that exclusively. And I'm glad I did and I'm glad I I had the push from my fear. I'm don't come from a family of entrepreneurs. I my mom says like, what the blog, what the podcast? Like a get a 401k? You know, get it Yeah, benefits, you know, yeah. So I was really, really, really pushed in that direction of like, you either, like, get a full time job, or you live at home, like what are you doing? You know, so I, I had to do that I've supported myself since the day I graduated from college and, and that's been a gift, I guess I would never have said it, then it's shortened to like be entitled, but now it really is and, and I've been able to support myself and learn and grow as a as a person and learn from that experience, and then take that you know, to do whatever I do next. However, I think it is really challenging to, and this is something I'm really happy I'm talking about and that you're giving me the platform to share about, which is me saying that I have a full time job. And I do all this stuff on the side. Because every time I say that to people I met with Oh my god, how do you do it? Wow, yeah. Oh, yeah. CNIN. Two things. That's the first thing is, I don't know, if I recommend doing both things. Like I took, like I said, when I was living in that apartment by myself, I applied, I'd gone through a breakup. And then I applied my control and my neurosis that I had been applying to food and my body to work because I was in this job that, you know, I liked, but wasn't again, the my dream job that I thought I wanted. And I spent all of my free time not making friends not going out with friends, because I was still pretty controlling with food. And so I put it all to work, you know, and I, in that time in that, you know, maybe two year period, I was working all the time, I was working my day job from nine to six, Monday through Friday, sometimes on the weekends when I needed to. And also in the evenings. And in the early early mornings, I started a podcast, over 200 episodes, I, you know, wrote a book with a publisher, I was still blogging, like I was doing all of these other things on the side. And something has to go when you have a life and a career. And as in two jobs, you know, and so for me, I replaced my life with my, of their career. And, and then, you know, after the book came out, I was just kind of like, okay, I owe this project that I made a year ago, because the publishing process takes so long, I owe it to this project to do my best for putting it out into the world and going people's podcasts and going to local news and do book signings and, and I did that and it was fun. And then I was like, Okay, I need to focus on my life, like this is not cool. And so I did that I put, you know, I kind of put that on the back burner and I started dating and I made friends and I hosted parties and I got into more things and I just became a more well rounded human being. But the reality is that a lot of the groundwork for my podcasts and my book being out in the world happened while having a full time job. Because I didn't have a life for a while. And I don't recommend that. Like you don't I don't want anyone to do that. I mean, it's it's just what happened for me. It's okay. It's whatever. I don't regret it. But I think what's interesting, and I had this conversation with a friend when I soon after I moved to New York. And she also has a blog and an Instagram and a podcast thing, the whole thing. Yeah. Oh thing. And we were having this conversation about how how we both make it work, like how we both make money. And you know, her answer was that, you know, her parents help her out and her boyfriend helps her out with money. And, you know, she makes money every once in a while, but sometimes she doesn't. And that's okay, because she has helped. And I talked to somebody else. And, you know, their their husbands supports them. And I talked to somebody else and they got money. And other way, you know, that means just like, we don't see that on the internet. Like there's, you know, I wish I don't wish this but like I kind of wish there was a disclaimer of like, yeah, how you really make funny this lifestyle? Yeah, it's easy to think like, Oh, she's just she's just a blogger, she I know, she doesn't have a full time job. So she must be able to support herself living in New York City, on whatever this isn't. And for me, it's like my podcast is sponsors. And I, you know, do some affiliate stuff, I have this book, but I've never had I've never paid myself through that. You know, and I think it's really important to share that because it's so easy to, for people to look at what I do and be like, Well, you know, I just saw she must have bought that dinner. She just posted a bottle. And I know she lives in New York and I How does she do it? Yeah. And or, or she has family money, or you know, someone else is supporting her. And I think it's just important that you're giving a platform to this. Like, it's just a big, big highlighted sticker going on everyone being like, you don't know the full story. Yeah, someone makes it work.

Kaila Tova 33:52

Exactly. And you know, it's so interesting. It blew my mind there. So I guess right around when I was getting ready to quit my podcast, right, I had was tired, I was doing the exact same thing you were doing, I was getting up at 5am to record 7am podcasts with people in, you know, the UK or whatever, you know, on the East Coast, just so that I could get do that before work than I do my work all day, I'd have to deal with like, you know, the institutionalized patriarchy, that was my job. And then I'd have to come home and write a blog post and spend my weekends instead of like going to the dog park or whatever, you know, sitting in a Starbucks working on social media posts. And it was, I mean, that I had this realization, I was talking to a whole bunch of coaches for the podcast, and then off the record, they'd be like, Oh, no, I don't make any money with this, like, I make a couple thousand a year, but my husband is helping or if I didn't have a partner, I wouldn't be able to do this. And you know, it's really interesting that this is such a feminist issue that I don't think anybody is disgusting. It's like, okay, so there's a button women who are like seeing other women model making money on the internet. Now, the thing is, a lot of women are then quitting their jobs, because they don't see any like male, they don't they don't have any, like female support or female role models, or they don't, you know, they didn't receive the kind of education that would allow them to make the kind of money they want to make. So they're like, no, all right, I'm not going to sit and be a copywriter for the rest of my life, or, you know, an admin or whatever, I'm going to make my money on the internet, and I'm going to be financially independent, right? Or there's women who are like, No, I'm going to I want to have babies, and I want to be home with them. Right? Or there's women who are just like, I don't ever want to have to be financially dependent on a man because if something goes wrong, and things go wrong, right, then you're screwed, right? You need, you need to be able to support yourself, so you can get out in a bad situation. So yeah, we're modeling this for each other without any disclaimers, like I'm a coach, and you have to put out that you're fit, you know, I'm famous, I'm supported. I'm people love me. Because from a social proof perspective, nobody wants to work with a quote unquote, loser, right? Nobody wants to work with somebody who's not successful. So I never put it out that I like only had four or five clients, right? Because I didn't want people to know that people didn't want to give me money. I wanted them to know that I had clients so that they'd want to be my client too. But it's a feminist issue, because there's other women who are looking at us being, you know, quote, unquote, successful and going, I'm going to quit my job, I'm going to stop working towards being the CEO, or getting to that management title, or, you know, figure out how to get this guy who's been horrible to me, you know, expose this or whatever. Because, you know, I can just drop out and become a coach. I can use the asset that I already know I have, which is my body. Right? I can build my brand. I can be famous on the internet, and I can do this. But then when I talk to coaches there, they all say, Oh, no, no, honey, unless you're like Kim Kardashian, you can't do that.

Katie Dalebout 37:05

Right? Um,

Kaila Tova 37:08

yeah, it's scary.

Katie Dalebout 37:10

Yeah. So that's so fascinating. Hi, like, I'm so happy, we're talking about this. And I would just want to highlight something you said of the piece about, yeah, we're sharing, like, the client letter and the email that are lovely, you know, one client out of the four that we have sent us, and we're doing that, like, I totally get that I totally see people doing that. And, and at the same time, I know for me, because I'm not a coach. And that's never really been been something that I do. But the thing that I would do, is I felt like, and this is I there was a lot of shame for me around. I would have never had this conversation I'm having with you right now. Yeah, two, three years ago, because I had a lot of shame around the fact of, I don't want people to know, I have a full time job, because then they'll think that I'm not a real podcaster I'm not a real author. I'm not an ideal blogger, I'm doing quotes, because I'm not making my money that way. Yeah. So that for that means, therefore, I am, you know, this is just a hobby. And what's wrong with these things, just being a hobby, you know, I think monetizing everything or like, I don't think that everything needs to be monetized. I think we would be a better society if we just enjoyed hobbies without trying to monetize everything. And I'm guilty of that, you know, like I said, entrepreneurship is very alluring. And I think like you said, two things, not being afraid to share, you know, I mean, but it's hard. Like, I get what you're saying, like, I don't want brands to not want to sponsor the podcast, yeah, I'm just like, I don't have a full time job to you know, like, I don't, I don't really want to lead with that. I'm talking to brand like, I want them to think that I'm a boss, and that I have a real podcast with real listeners, which I do. Like, I've been doing this for almost five years, I have a really dedicated audience, and I am a good candidate for their brand. Listening feel free. I mean, the point is like, but if I lead with, yeah, it is on the side, it's a hobby, you know, have a full time job, it's fine. They're gonna be like, okay, you know, like, exactly. So it's just, it's, yeah, it's it's not talked about, and it's, I don't really know the answer of how to change that, or how to make people comfortable with it. What do you think?

Kaila Tova 39:36

Honestly, what I think is that this is a complicated issue, and it's not one that's going to get resolved anytime soon. I mean, it definitely won't get resolved until we start acknowledging that our online brands are both consciously and unconsciously manipulative, and that they're teaching us that it's important to separate ourselves from the truth of who we actually are. But I also think that media literacy alone will not save us. Here's Sarah been a wiser again,

Sarah Banet-Weiser 40:02

I was talking to my son and his girlfriend yesterday about face tune. And, and the different ways in which, you know, you, Scott, you the all the different beauty apps, and in a body apps, where you sculpt your body in different ways. And what was interesting to me about this was that they showed me a picture of someone that they knew who had clearly like, made her waist, like four inches, then, you know, cinched in four inches, and, and the way that they showed me was that the window is still behind her was like, sort of morphed or something, right? And they're like, this is how you can identify people who have used these sort of apps, but it doesn't even matter if we know we can identify them. Right? Right. Those are the images that continue to circulate the, you know, and those are the images that continue to, you know, to kind of enforce an idea of like, idea realized bodies idealize femininity. So that's why it's complicated. It's not that we don't know that these are produced. Right. Right. We know this. I mean, it's, it's, you know, you know, and I, and I, you know, as someone who is a feminist media scholar, and has looked at tons and tons of advertisements, like I've said to you, you know, I look at all of these ads, and you know, and now online, but also, you know, for years, and magazines, and everything else, and like look at that airbrushing oh my god and still am affected by, you know, still want to buy that, because I'm like, maybe, maybe I can look like that. So that's the thing is that I don't think that we're being duped, right, or manipulated, I think that we're part of this, and, and we sort of, we participate in it in a way that is sort of deliberately not self reflexive, in part, because it's just so much there's so much here in this in this kind of action, economy visibility, that we don't even have the time to contemplate this or to be self reflective, we just move on to the next. Exactly. And, you know, that's kind of the thing is, I, you know, I think media literacy is is something of a misnomer, you know, we are at least in terms of like what we need to be doing as a culture. You know, I think people get it, we've seen the dove ad, right.

Kaila Tova 42:25

Like, we know, it's bad, but what we really need is marketing literacy in terms of, do I buy the thing that is being sold to me not do I believe it, but do I buy it?

Sarah Banet-Weiser 42:37

Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point. And I think that that is also part of that marketing, what you're calling the marketing literacy is also part of, you know, what, what we need to be teaching our students in our in, you know, in an agent in ourselves about like, identifying, you know, fake news, or misinformation or business information, right, that we, you know, it's it's people since I'm a media studies, Professor, people ask me a lot, are you, you know, do you how do you teach students to discern what is fake? And what is real news? I can't discern it. Right. You know, so, I mean, I, I, I know that I am supposed to have a certain kind of expertise in this area. And in some ways I do but but I can't even discern it. So it's like, it's a different sort. You're exactly right. I think we need a different sort of, I don't even know if I would say little literacy because that's so overused, you know, but a different sort of, of processes of interpretation. And that will allow us to kind of navigate this super messy, super complicated and like relentless field. For Brenda once she had committed to her health coaching aspirations she moved forward with abandon, it was easy for her to build a coaching practice into our existing wedding offering. And as well learned from her story, it offered her the promise of recurring income in a way that weddings never could.

Brenda Swann 44:05

So every month so in my wedding planning thing, I have this thing called the bridal nosh and originally we used to get together to nosh on wine and cheap fancy cheese and crackers and talk about you know, baby blue over turquoise blue over powder blue because you know, it's very important to decipher between all the blues once we try to put your palette together for your colors at your wedding. So I had actually turned these these bridal Nash's into just, you know, nosh with Brenda Swan nosh. Whatever, I don't even remember giving it quite the name. But I remember taking the word bridal off of it. And I just say hey come nosh with us. And they literally turned into how do I teach you healthy habits. Because now I'm doing all these things, and I'm becoming a health coach, and I'm amazing. And then, you know, I was bringing in my instead of bringing in the coaches or the personal trainers that were coming to, to, you know, kind of romance my couples, I was bringing in my CrossFit coaches, here's what you need to do. So I thought in that I could help my couples and what I wanted to do was to help my couples become holistically healthy. So it was instead of a picture perfect wedding, it was like what you know, picture perfect, everything you're gonna do after the wedding, and then it would keep me employed, you know, it would keep me employed, I would have to still be in their lives. And the clients, of course, I didn't want it and didn't come to that, because it was already included in what they paid me anyway, you know, so it was no big deal and it wasn't income, that's fine, because you're still paying me. And the ones that didn't, are the ones that did you know, I got to work with them more and then continue to work with them with, you know, infertility and whatever else. So that was originally my plan. And then I could leave my company to be ran by my staff that I had working, they could continue to the weddings, because they were really good at it. You know, I had this great designer and I had great logistics, girl, you know, I had a great staff and I could focus my passion and my true calling of saving the world for all from all the health ailments ever for post the wedding. Right, and I still work with them. And I would still have that flow of income, right and have like these varying businesses and, you know, because I mean, I can't lie to you and tell you that I didn't want to make continue to make money. Well, of course, I wanted to continue make money. And in the health field, I guess you can call it or in this health and fitness world. It's never going to you know, it's never going to end. It's always there. There's always a revenue stream.

Kaila Tova 46:25

Well, as we learned in our last episode, there's always an income stream. If you look the part, let's jump back into a conversation that I had with writer and speaker Melissa Toler. It's part of a capitalist culture where you are financially rewarded for looking like you're healthy. You're financially rewarded for following the mandatory idea, right, that health is mandatory, and that you only get money when you're healthy. And that's probably why that business coach, right is selling weight loss. Hmm. Because, you know, how can you and I'm speaking as her right, how can you be worth something? You know, even if you have a great business, and you're helping people with their finances, how can you be truly worthy if you don't look the part?

Melissa Toler 47:17

Yes, yep. Absolutely.

Kaila Tova 47:19

And like, I mean, I even saw this with a marketing coach, he did the same thing. I think I posted on Facebook the other day, he put he followed me around with a sponsor to add saying, you know, he normally follows me around with like, stuff for like, selling courses are like, fix your marketing, and instead I got how I lost weight. And why that makes me a better person.

Melissa Toler 47:42

Yeah. Oh, yes. I saw that.

Kaila Tova 47:44

Yeah. Right. And it's just like, Well, okay, but what does that have to do with marketing and and what it does have to do with marketing is it gives him authority. Hmm, it gives him the authority to take my money, cuz he earned it by being thinner, leaner, or fitter. And that to me, it's like,What? Why?

Melissa Toler 48:09

Yeah, I think it also, you know, in it's related to the A creates an extra income stream for these people. You know, it. It's actually the business coach, who I first talked about, she said, if, if Oprah can monetize weight loss, and why can't I? Oh, yeah. So the I mean, it's a it's a way to make money from people. Yeah. I mean, that's really what it comes down to.

Kaila Tova 48:38

Right. And so why would anybody want to listen to somebody like you or me, say, like, hey, what you're doing is disempowering an entire group of people. Right, what you're doing is you're disempowering yourself. And it's no money is empowerment. What are you talking about? Yeah, if you take away this income stream for me, because as you mentioned earlier, and I think you're you're absolutely right, like everybody's doing it, so it can't be that bad. Yes. Right. If everyone if everyone is giving me their money, because they think it's a good thing, it can't be that bad. Because I'm not a bad person. And I don't take people's money in a in a disingenuous way. I'm being totally authentic about my weight. And being totally authentic about my struggles, and being totally authentic about my fitness plan. I earned this. So why would you take that away from me? And it's like, well, in this capitalist society in which we live, if people reward you with your money, or with their money, rather than you must have earned it, right. You deserve it. Yeah,

exactly. And so therefore, who cares what anybody else is doing? And who cares if if you don't think it's the right thing? Because I know I earned it people gave it to me. Yes. This episode is part one of two. And we'll continue talking about the dangers of personal branding in the health world in our next episode. For now, I'll let Victoria Ferriz the Fitspo documentarian and former bodybuilder whom we met in the last episode, have the last word

Victoria Ferriz 50:07

with with this whole idea of lifting yourself up by your own bootstraps? And how badly do you want it, you know, rags to riches. There is something that is very heroic about that. There's something that's very inspiring about that, right? So where you're born a certain way, it could be you come from poverty, or you come from an abusive family, or, you know, you have a drug addiction, or whatever, and something happens that makes you go so deep within yourself, that you have to decide, what do I want in my life. And I've been faced with that many times, sometimes where it's been for good, it's sometimes where it's hurt me. And you have to decide for yourself, What do I want? Who am I, and when a human being can decide that they will change, and that they will choose a better life for themselves. There's something very inspiring about that. Because how many of us want to do that, there's so many of us who really want the courage to speak up for ourselves to speak up for what our heart truly desires, and to go for it to, to pass our limitations to face our fears, and blah, blah, blah. And that's very true. I'm still very inspired by people who can do that. But when we put it in terms of will fitness is what's going to bring you happiness, it gets it gets a little distorted, because now you're putting your value on your body, you know, now you're putting your value on your food, your ability to restrict it. And that gets very distorted because food is something that we do every day, because our body is the place that we reside in. And if you develop a negative relationship to your body, you're screwed. It doesn't matter if you've if you've attained the body on the outside. If If on the outside, you look like you made it which you know, I did that I look like I had made it I had my little six pack and all that stuff. But on the inside, you are fighting yourself, you're in fear food, you're in fear of, well, what if I no longer look like this? Then what's the point? Right so you know, now that comes into fits bow in terms of marketing. Well, who has sold this idea to you that that is what you should aspire to. It's it's it was genius to use fitness and parallel the body transformation to the American dream. That was a genius move. Because I mean, there's so many ways in which you know it very easily can be it can be used that way.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Kaila PrinsJuly 7, 2021